Help. Fail to fire issues after break in? Updated

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by UPSTATENYER, Nov 12, 2007.

  1. UPSTATENYER

    UPSTATENYER New Member

    11
    Jun 18, 2007
    I have owned my P3-AT for about 6 monthes now and had zero issues. I cleaned the gun and lubed it out of the box, I also checked out the F&B articles. It appeared that my HC P3-AT did not need any F&B, the machine marks and edges were much better than my buddies parkerized model, so I left it as is. I ran 250 rounds through it, Magtech, CCI, Remington ... cleaning it every 50 rounds and had no issues at all. Fast forward to yesterday at the range, every other round failed to fire. I had all 3 brands of ammo with me , so I know it is not a hard primer issue.

    I took the gun apart and checked the firing pin first, every thing was free and clean. I also cleaned the extractor and screw while I had it apart. I noticed 2 things when I had it apart, on the ejection port side and oposite the ejector the rail is dinged up pretty good. Also the front top egde of the magazine well directly under the feed ramp, is slightly dinged. I removed all sharp edges from these spots and filled the mag up.

    Same thing occured. I checked and found that all I have to do to get it to fire is nudge the slide rearward 1/8" and it will fire fine. I also looked at the end fo the rounds that failed to fire and noticed they each have a deep deformation in them. I can only assume that this mark is from them running in to the feed ramp, or the top edge of the chamber. I know that I am not limp wristing the gun, nor am I short stroking the trigger. What else could it be?

    I really like the gun, but now I wonder how reliable it is?
     
  2. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    IF you what you are experiencing is light strikes and you have checked the firing pin assembly then I would call KT service and ask for a new hammer spring assembly.  Possibly the spring somehow weakened or even broke.  This next part, I do not understand...   :-/
    "Rearward"?  Did you mean forward?  If so, change the recoil springs while you're at it.  Check for any burrs, etc that may slow the slide down and grease the rails and hammer interface. As for disfigured bullets, those are smileys. Not to worry.  
     

  3. UPSTATENYER

    UPSTATENYER New Member

    11
    Jun 18, 2007
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    "Do you have more than 1 mag?" I do have to 2 mags, and the symptoms are the same with both. I even took the mags apart to make sure I had not installed the spring incorrect after cleaning them.

    ""Rearward"?  Did you mean forward?"  I have to pull the slide back 1/8" and let it return forward resetting the hammer. As for the hammer spring it is intacted and seams to be as strong as it ever was.
     
  4. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    "Pulling the slide reaward to reset the hammer"

    Any chance you are not releasing the trigger fully (two clicks) and pulling trigger after only letting it click once

    Doing so will drop the hammer from the block, but not draw it back to allow it to have some velocity when it hits the pin
     
  5. zeke

    zeke New Member

    Dec 20, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    I would have bet on the short stroking of the trigger, but if your aware of it your probably not doing it.

    Did you look at the primers on the rounds that didn't fire?

    Regular primer mark or lightly dented?

    Is the dent center or out on the edge? I'm wondering if the slide is going into full battery.

    As for the nudge rearward it now makes sense, by moving it rearward you are reseting the hammer on the hammer block, allow you another try at getting it to fire.

    I had a bout of light strikes with one of my guns. One of the things you can check is to watch the hammer as you shoot, make sure it coming all the way back and not just snapping off of the hammer block. My problem turned out to be gunk in the firing pin hole from the primer. It would shave it off one primer that fired fine, get clogged in the firing pin hole causing a light strike on the next round, but dislodge the gunk, and the next round would fire fine. Took me awhile to figure it out though.
     
  6. UPSTATENYER

    UPSTATENYER New Member

    11
    Jun 18, 2007
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    I thought initially that I might have been doing that, but I went to the range again tonight to try a few senarios and it still happens even if I shoot the first round and remove my finger from the trigger gaurd and then pull it again.

    The edge of the slide bottom that contacts, and cocks the hammer is pretty well rounded and has a indentation in the middle of it (like a dip). Is this normal, I just wonder if it has worn irregularly and is not pushing the hammer all the way back.

    "Regular primer mark or lightly dented?" They are light strikes, the primer is barely dented. If you stick them in again they will fire.
     
  7. 98_1LE

    98_1LE New Member

    345
    Dec 29, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    Without knowing the intimate internals of these guns, my guess would be the spring that drives the pin broke.

    Call Kel-tec.
     
  8. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    Just thinking out load.

    to check the hammer action.  I would pull the slide and use thumb to catch the hammer fall and then thumb it to reset.

    back a year or so ago, there was a little discussion about light strikes and forum recomendation to clip a couple coils of FP spring.  I did clip mine.  SUPPOSEDLY KT was suppose to have made the FP springs the same, but I'm not sure

    If you pull the FP,  I would put the slide/barrel back on with FP out, then look and feel the trigger hammer action

    HERE is older post with FP spring dimensions
     
  9. zeke

    zeke New Member

    Dec 20, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    As you already figured out the slide only has to move reaward about 1/4 inch to reset the hammer on the hammer block, as long as that happens the rest of the firing process is up to the trigger, trigger axis, transfer bar, hammer, and hammer spring.

    Try another range trip. Watch the hammer through it's travel. Be safe but don't worry about making accurate shots, You want to see if it makes full travel when you have a light strike or is it somehow snapping off of the hammer block before it is supposed to.

    If you do get a light strike. Remove the mag, gently eject the round, remove the slide or somehow block it open and check the firing pin hole in the breech for anykind of debris. I say to gently eject the round because the light strike will have probably knocked whatever slowed down the firing pin loose.

    I had this on a PF-9 so I could just lock the slide back which made it easier to get a look at the hole. It doesn't take much to slow down the firing pin.

    You might check the breech around the firing pin hole for any thing that might be snagging material from primers.
     
  10. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    I had one P3AT that broke the trigger axis after about 50 perfect rounds:
    [​IMG]

    At first it would do just as you are saying.  I believe it was still holding together quite nicely because of the other parts around it and sometimes would stay together enough to fire and sometimes would not.  I can't say that I tried resetting by only a slight slide rack, but it probably would have done just what you are saying.  Might be something to check out.

    Here is what it looked like when I pulled off the trigger bar and the broken part fell out in my lap:
    [​IMG]

    -Scott
     
  11. UPSTATENYER

    UPSTATENYER New Member

    11
    Jun 18, 2007
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    [quote author=adamsesq link=1194915678/0#10 date=1194919350]I had one P3AT that broke the trigger axis after about 50 perfect rounds:

    I will pull it apart and check this. My other thought was on the frame rail the ding opposite the ejector looks as if it was made by the extractor, and or the empty shell casing. Is it possible that not enough material was removed, and now as the gun breaks the contact is slowing the slide down not allowing it to fully reset the hammer?
     
  12. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    The ding that you described is very normal. Most of us just file/scrape it down smooth, hit it with a black marker, and be done with it. There will be two more much smaller ones all the way forward on the frame rails too. They will all get to a certain point and stop. Pretty sure that is not your problem.

    I would have bet $ on short stroking until you specifically ruled that out. But what that means to me is when you call KT in the am to ask for some parts I'd tell them "it acts just like I am short stroking the trigger" and make sure you are ready to answer "Well, are you?"

    -Scott
     
  13. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    sorry, forgot about rail ding opposite the ejector.

    that is norm, mine is about 1/16 X 1/16". I scraped mine back flush.
     
  14. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    Sounds like he's ruled that out.


     
  15. Bobo

    Bobo Well-Known Member Supporter

    Jun 13, 2005
  16. UPSTATENYER

    UPSTATENYER New Member

    11
    Jun 18, 2007
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?


    Well I took it all apart, and the trigger axis is fine. Ps do not take the hammer block pin out unless you have an hour to waste. What a PITA that was. Bobo the trigger pin is all the way in, that was one of the first things I thought might be wrong.
     
  17. UPSTATENYER

    UPSTATENYER New Member

    11
    Jun 18, 2007
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    Well, I just got off the phone with Kel-tec and they said send it in. So this evening I will go to the range again, and watch the hammer. Maybe taking it fully apart and cleaning it dislodged some debris, but i doubt it. Wish me luck :-/
     
  18. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    GOOD LUCK
     
  19. Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    GOOD LUCK!
     
  20. zeke

    zeke New Member

    Dec 20, 2005
    Re: Help. Fail to fire issues after break in?

    Upstatenyer did you make it to the range? How did it go?