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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all.

I am a new member of the forum, although I have been active on the Guns and Ammo forum for about 10 years, this is my first Kel-Tec. I collect Makarov 9x18 caliber and .380 handguns as a hobby, but I also shoot everything from .22 to a 45-70, and reload almost everything with a centefire primer.

Here are some pictures of my new toy, a Gen 2 .40 S&W. ( If they ever made a 10mm they could not keep them in stock... )











I bought this at the Miami Gun Show last weekend from my favorite vendor, and I have not even shot it yet. I do like the extra length the adjustable stock gives you. I already have a bunch of questions I am hoping the forum gurus can answer. This will remain an iron sighted gun for me as I view it as an under 50 yard pig gun.

Questions:

1. Chamber support - it appears to be a supported .40 chamber, but I would like the definative answer. I intend to reload for this and that leads to my next question...

2. 155 / 180 / 200 gr bullets - performance. Clearly the rifle nature of the carbine adds 20% to 25% additional velocity, but has anyone looked at bullet performance? This barrel length turns a .40 short and weak into a hot rodded 10 mm velocity. From what I have read the 180 XTP is about the best choice for a combination of velocity and erformance. The Barnes TSX coppers have me interested as well.

3. Chamber length - I haven't checked the magazine length, but will the chamber / magazine allow for slightly longer COAL?

4. Sight improvement - are there any tritium / hi-viz front sights available for the Gen 2? My search came up with nada... gen 1 yes, gen 2 not so much. The rear peep could do with an outline to find it better in low light as well.

5. When will there be a 10mm? Come on guys! It is .142 longer and we will pay for the buffer / bolt improvements!!! My Glock 20 is screaming for it.

Thanks in advance...

D
 

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looks like your good to go

A fine looking rig you have there. I bought a Sub 2000 gen 2 9mm about two months ago. It has been flawless in form and function.
I love this little carbine.
Sorry, I don`t have answers to your questions.
Bet you will like the Sub 2000.
 

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Howdy from KY

Can't really answer your questions just tell you what I run in GEN2 40. I have both the Glock and S&W version and both perfect so far. I run the Glock extended mags 22 rounds and the stand M&P mags and Promag extended 25rds.

I have the Midwest Industries Red dot on one and TRS-25 plus riser on the other. The open sights are fine but I find it somewhat difficult to get a good sight picture with cheek smashed to get that low.

Ammo I run 165HP Ranger and 180gr Blazer for practice.

I with you on the 10MM idea!
 

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Questions:

1. Chamber support - it appears to be a supported .40 chamber, but I would like the definative answer. I intend to reload for this and that leads to my next question...
Yes, it is a supported chamber but you need to bear in mind this is a blowback action, so how much hotter a load it will handle may be an issue.

2. 155 / 180 / 200 gr bullets - performance. Clearly the rifle nature of the carbine adds 20% to 25% additional velocity, but has anyone looked at bullet performance? This barrel length turns a .40 short and weak into a hot rodded 10 mm velocity. From what I have read the 180 XTP is about the best choice for a combination of velocity and erformance. The Barnes TSX coppers have me interested as well.
Read a little deeper in the reloading thread. It's been so long I can't remember his name, but one member made a very accurate, lethal for deer load using a 135gr bullet. The problem with going heavier in a pistol round for hunting is you usually end up having to give up some velocity or you risk battering the action. I personally don't even recommend using 180gr bullets as a steady diet, although Kel-tec has never specifically said not to. Just my own personal experience speaking here.

3. Chamber length - I haven't checked the magazine length, but will the chamber / magazine allow for slightly longer COAL?
I honestly don't know. This has never been asked before. You may have to just try a dummy load set to the COAL you are wondering about. But you would probably be okay. These are NOT precision cut chambers or barrels.

4. Sight improvement - are there any tritium / hi-viz front sights available for the Gen 2? My search came up with nada... gen 1 yes, gen 2 not so much. The rear peep could do with an outline to find it better in low light as well.
The Gen 2 front sight uses standard AR15 front sight inserts. The variety available out there is your only limit. Some members several years ago did try painting the rear peep aperture with glow in the dark paint, with varied results.

5. When will there be a 10mm? Come on guys! It is .142 longer and we will pay for the buffer / bolt improvements!!! My Glock 20 is screaming for it.
Probably never happen. This thing has been in production in one form or another since 1995 with no plans to make a 10mm version. We've actually had more demand for a 45ACP version with the same results. Probably the only reason it's available in 9mm and 40S&W is because they both use the same OAL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Probably never happen. This thing has been in production in one form or another since 1995 with no plans to make a 10mm version. We've actually had more demand for a 45ACP version with the same results. Probably the only reason it's available in 9mm and 40S&W is because they both use the same OAL.
I am a can do guy... So I have to ask what would it take to interest Kel Tec in doing this? I would like to see you offer a stiffer recoil spring as well, to tune the rifle. How hard would a stiffer spring be to make? Imagine making it stiff enough for a 10mm and you are on your way. I think I have some gunsmithing friends that could modify the magwell, feed ramp and chamber to take the 10mm.... just need a better bolt and spring kit.

D
 

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The Sub is already getting beat hard by the heavier 40 S$w loads. Me thinks it will take more than a heavier recoil spring to keep the full blow 10mm Loads from beating the sub quickly to death.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I love 45 but this would be a screamer in 10MM! What a perfect companion to my G20 and 29!
It is possible in a carbine to load a 10mm to well over 1000 fpe, making it a feasible mid sized game gun, better than an M4 5.56 under 100 yards in my opinion. What a great SHTF rig, a G20 and backup S2K.

D
 

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I am a can do guy... So I have to ask what would it take to interest Kel Tec in doing this? I would like to see you offer a stiffer recoil spring as well, to tune the rifle. How hard would a stiffer spring be to make? Imagine making it stiff enough for a 10mm and you are on your way. I think I have some gunsmithing friends that could modify the magwell, feed ramp and chamber to take the 10mm.... just need a better bolt and spring kit.

D
You're questions would be better addressed by calling Kel-tec and asking to speak to one of the engineers (Maybe Toby?). While one or 2 Kel-tec employees are members here they have minimal participation in the forum. I can tell you they only made a very very few in 357SIG, and those were only in the original all metal Sub9. There was an idea to offer an aftermarket kit to convert a .40S&W Sub2K to 357SIG, but the cost was prohibitive because the additional bolt weight to control the recoil impulse was made of Tungsten (as in the price of a new gun). So as far as I know no one ever bought a kit and they fell off the radar. Again, I don't think you'll find any interest at Kel-tec for making a 10mm version but the worst they can do is say no.
 

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Might even have to introduce a Gen 2 multi caliber milled receiver Sub-9. Make it modular, with easy change grips and barrels. And use adjustable hydraulic assist springs in the buffer.
Call it "Sub-Multi".
 

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Velocity advantages? Maybe, but maybe not so much. Years ago, I had two S&W .44 Magnums-one 4" barrel and the other 6 1/2. Both were bought new and the 4" often produced higher velocities than its longer barreled brother.

10MM has never recovered form its ill fated association with the FBI. The sub is a blow back design and it will take a lot more than just chaging springs and a heavier bolt. I suggest you shoot your .40 for a year and then decide what you want to do.

Right now they're only made in 9MM and .40 and they can't keep up with demand in these two calibers. I have a .40 Glock and find the current self defense loads just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So I have been studying the gun and thinking about its redesign. It is made cheap, to sell cheap. Dealer cost is about $300 and retail is $500. I paid $375 for mine about the same as I paid for my G22 used. It's intended as a part time fun gun, not a 20,000 round gun.

But what would I do differently if I designed it today? First I would make it side folding to make keeping optics on it easier. A 4x lit fixed optic would really be nice. Second, I would make the chamber in the .40 replaceble with a 10mm module, swap in swap out. In pistol calibers It really is limited to .380 / 9mm or .40 / 10mm, or .45. Rimmed cartridges don't work well in these designs. Just like an upper can be swapped in an AR 15, I would consider a barrel swapping design as well, giving you the potential for a 9mm, .40, 10mm, or .45 acp. The gun is so cheap as it is I would own one of each if they were made, but if a barrel swap could be made for $250, I certainly would own one of each. The buffer needs to be improved for 10mm or .45 acp, or even hot .40 S&W. The bolt is easy to change as is the recoil spring. If we can shoot a .308, an uploaded, hot, 10mm recoil is not going to be that much

As a 50 yard camp gun / 100 yard survival gun / small compact gun it is great. It has been in production in one form or another 23 years, and perhaps time for some new ideas. It certainly could be an effective 100 to 150 yard gun in 10mm and equals the .357 in power, and could be better than a Winchester or Marlin lever gun in .357, with magazines and a Glock pistol at your side...

IMHO

D
 

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We all buy subs for different reasons, but like Popeye it is what it is. I like it because I can carry it in a lap top bag designed for lap tops with 17" screens. I carry it to deal with threats and issues that can and will jump up and bite us.


Others have different needs and wants, but. expecting KT or any other company to undergo an extensive retooling when they never recover the cost of such efforts is not good business.

Have you actually shot your .40 yet?
 
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