[darkwriter77]

Heizer's put out a few weird novelty offerings like the "Pocket AR" in .223, the "Pocket AK" in 7.62x39, and (my personal favorite, just because) the "Pocket Shotgun) in .410/.45 LC. Realistically, none are particularly practical for much of anything beyond being range toys, except maybe the PS1 (Pocket Shotgun) in the role of a desert hiking trail gun for snakes ... or a coup de grace option for dispatching mortally wounded rogue vampires. Too much muzzle blast and recoil, too much muzzle velocity loss from the super-duper-short barrel, and all are single-shot pistols, sooooo ... yeah. One and done. Yawn.

But then Heizer finally went semi-auto. I didn't hear anything about it today until I saw one of their ads in a magazine, but apparently they featured a teeny-tiny, super-duper-thin, single-stack .45 ACP semi-auto design at SHOT Show 2016 in April with a totally weird but nifty design. On the plus side, it's absurdly thin (around 3/4") and compact (Beretta Nano-sized), it's all metal (a plus for some folks), chambered in .45 ACP or 9mm, it's got a 5+1 capacity for the .45 version (I'm guessing 6+1 or 7+1 for 9mm) with a 7+1 extended mag option, and it has this really screwy flip-flopped mechanism that uses a fixed barrel and puts the recoil spring ABOVE and BEHIND the barrel facing backwards, rather than Boberg's XS45 backward-feeding "bullpup" setup. A reeeeeeeally low bore axis on this thing means low muzzle flip, and the weight of the all-metal frame also helps, so you have an EXTREMELY small, flat CCW piece in a potent caliber that (in theory) is not painful to shoot. Think of it as the Chiappa Rhino of semi-autos. If it actually works reliably ... that's all pretty darned awesome stuff.

This is the sort of thinking-outside-the-box .45 pistol design that I've been wishing for years that Kel-Tec would develop. But Heizer beat them to the punch, apparently.

On the downside ... it's VERY heavy for its size (like 25+ oz.), it has a manual safety (deal-breaker for many folks), it's not a mechanically proven design (yet), and it has an MSRP of $899, which is twice as expensive as a lot of other polymer-framed 9mm options.

Aside from the price and mechanical safety, I like how it all sounds on paper. I think I'd be more interested in the 9mm version, myself, but I wouldn't rule out the .45 ACP model as a ... uhhh ... WHATEVER role sort of gun ... if and only if it's proven to be reliable and comfortable to shoot. It's weird, and I'm a big fan of weird, just so long as it's a practical kind of weird. Just don't think I'll be among the first to run out and buy one as soon as they hit the shelves, just so I can become one of their unpaid beta-testers. Y'know?

Anyone else heard of this thingy? Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[JAB]

Hadn't heard of it. Kinda looks like somebody took the frame of a .25acp Colt vest pocket pistol and stuck a stubby .45 slide on it. You're right - weird but still interesting. I doubt I'll ever own one as I think my semi-auto buying days are pretty much over (I'll keep the ones I have and there are a couple more I wouldn't mind but I'll live fine without them) and the price is waaaay more than I'd pay. Still, dangit, I have a soft spot for mousegun sized pistols. I expect, however, that if the price ever did come down far enough for me to consider it by then my wrist - which has been aching some, lately - will not be in a shape to be shooting something like that.

 

[darkwriter77]

The thing that makes me wonder about the recoil, though, is that this appears to be some kind of a wacky blowback design because the barrel is fixed. The force of the recoil might be more in-line with your wrist and thus result in less muzzle FLIP - they have a brief little video on the Heizer website proving as much - but the more I think of it, the more I suspect that it won't necessarily have less felt RECOIL because there's not really anything soaking up that rearward force, unless it has a ridiculously stiff recoil spring. Combine that with the VERY thin size/shape of the pistol, and it makes me wonder if it'll be how Jeff Quinn from Gunblast described the Heizer Pocket Shotgun as concentrating all of that force right into the spot between your thumb and forefinger - sounds like a formula for OUCH, especially for me with my easily-made-sore old thumb joint injury. Again, the 9mm version will naturally recoil less, but I somehow doubt it'll feel anything like an M&P Shield or Walther PPS M2, even though it has a similar weight...

 

[zaitcev]

I don't think PKO45 any better than Kahr PM45. Even XD-S gets criticized for excessive weight.

 

[JAB]

...The force of the recoil might be more in-line with your wrist...but the more I think of it, the more I suspect that it won't necessarily have less felt RECOIL because there's not really anything soaking up that rearward force, unless it has a ridiculously stiff recoil spring.

That pretty much sums up my concern. In fact, in some ways for a small pistol firing a relatively large caliber allowing a little 'flip' might be preferable. I am thinking a concept utilized by the 'plow handle' style grips on old style single action revolvers. Those are actually designed to allow the grip to 'roll' up a little in your hand (translating to what folks would call muzzle flip) in order to somewhat mitigate felt recoil.

 

[Junkie]

You wanna see a tiny 45? I have an AMT Backup 45. DAO so the trigger isn't so great. No safety, no slide catch, heel release. Here it is next to my PF9. I will admit that it isn't the most pleasant to shoot though.

 

[darkwriter77]

Given, the ol' AMT Backup is small, but it's still about average in terms of width, and they didn't have the best record of reliability. Plus, don't they use a simple blowback action? Or is it a tilting-barrel action? If it's the former and not the latter, then that probably contributes to the unpleasant recoil.

The two different Springfield XDS45's that I've had (a 3.3" and 4.0") never had BAD recoil, but there was definitely a lot of muzzle flip. Same with the Kahr CW45: the hearty muzzle flip combined with the long, heavy trigger made that thing a chore to shoot accurately. All three did carry quite nicely, though - thin, light, and compact.

The PKO45 seems to have at least addressed the issue of muzzle flip, and it's even thinner still than the XDS models. But it's quite a bit heavier, too, and again, its design that cuts down on muzzle flip might instead be sending that recoil impulse straight back into the web of your thumb/forefinger and could cause some serious discomfort. Soooooo ... gonna wait and see what more folks say about it when it starts getting distributed.

 

[Junkie]

You're right that it isn't narrow and I have had issues with it using cheap ammo. Seems to work fine with good stuff. The sights aren't very good either, just a long trough.

I'll have to take a look but I'm pretty sure it's a locked breech design. I don't know of any 45 pistols (real pistols) that are blowback...

 

[lklawson]

I don't know of any 45 pistols (real pistols) that are blowback...

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/Hi-Point-handguns/45ACP_handgun.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Junkie]

Huh, didn't realize they made a 45 version in blowback. http://www.orions-hammer.com/blowback/ claims 2.3lb (admittedly an estimate), which is a little more than the 35oz total weight of that. I remember weighing my bolt + extension a while ago, wish I remembered what they weighed to compare.

 

[lklawson]

Huh, didn't realize they made a 45 version in blowback.

All of the Hi Point firearms are Simple Blowback, including their Carbines. The are chambered in .380ACP, 9mm Luger +P, .45ACP, and .40S&W (a high pressure cartridge).

http://www.orions-hammer.com/blowback/ claims 2.3lb (admittedly an estimate), which is a little more than the 35oz total weight of that. I remember weighing my bolt + extension a while ago, wish I remembered what they weighed to compare.

Yeah, I know. I've used that resource a number of times but it really looks like it errs heavily on the side of caution.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Pancho_Villa]

Always someone trying to stick the fat .45 acps in a tiny gun. Maybe this one will work better. It will still weigh alot when it is fully loaded.

Tried the AMT Backup in .45 back in the day. It was heavy when it was empty and even heavier when fully loaded. You could stick it in your back pocket, but needed suspenders to hold up your pants. The DAO trigger was a beeeetch. Poor sights. Reliability problems. I did not have it very long.

There was another gun back then called the Semmerling. It was a small, stainless .45, but was not an auto loader. The slide had to be operated manually every time to fire it. It was expensive and never had a following.

The .380 AMT Backups were almost as bad as the .45. I had both the SA only and DAo models. Heavy for a small gun. But that was all there was back than. Nothing in polymer frame in that size.

Tried tha Kahr CW45. It was light, until ya loaded it full. It was reliable, accurate and only slightly larger than my LC9. Great trigger and sights. The weight of the gun fully loaded was what bugged me about it. It was probably the best compromise of size & weight.

 

[zaitcev]

Tried tha Kahr CW45. It was light, until ya loaded it full. It was reliable, accurate and only slightly larger than my LC9. Great trigger and sights. The weight of the gun fully loaded was what bugged me about it. It was probably the best compromise of size & weight.

That is about my impression about CW45 too (well, I actually have a P45 with night sights, which is an older variety of it, but it's exactly the same frame). I solved the weight problem by ditching pocket holsters and switching to carrying in a shoulder system under the shirt. The .45 Kahrs are rare and finding holsters is a chore, so I ordered the shoulder system from a local leather smith. Note, however, that even fully loaded CW45 is lighter than PKO45, even though it's noticeably larger. Finally, although amazingly slim when compared to fat .45 guns like Glock 30, a .45 Kahr is thicker than the Herzer. It's amazing that a gun as small as PKO45 can be that heavy.

P.S. Shooting the Kahr takes a bit of practice, because recoil is significant. You have to grab it just so the recoil is directed into the arm. If you grab it improperly, it can hurt.

 

[Junkie]

I wonder how the .45 Shield compares. I haven't had the chance to shoot one yet.

Of course the Glock 30 is thick, it's double stack. The 36 isn't quite so big.

 

[darkwriter77]

The Shield .45 almost certainly is going to have less felt recoil than the PKO45, assuming the latter is a blowback-style action, because the Shield uses the typical tilting barrel Browning short-recoil whatchamacallit system that pretty much everyone (all the cool kids, anyway) has been using in semi-auto pistols since the 1911 and Hi-Power came out.

The Glock 30 is a kittycat when it comes to recoil. The G30S that I have recoils just a tiny bit more than the regular G30 that I had before, but it's still wayyyyy easier to shoot accurately and quickly than the Kahr CW45 that I once had, and significantly more so than either the XDS45 3.3" or 4.0" that I also had. About the only two things I've shot in .45 ACP that recoiled less than the G30 are, of course, the G21 and the Smith & Wesson M&P45.

The PKO45 - and I'm just speculating based on a few pictures, stats, and a brief video clip I saw - is probably going to be easy to shoot quickly because of the minimal muzzle flip, but (in .45 ACP) probably not all that pleasant to shoot because of the recoil going straight back and being focused in a much narrower zone because of the super-thin frame. A larger, wider pistol like the G30 might weigh about the same but spreads that recoil force out over a wider area, so it won't beat up your thumb joint and/or the muscles between your thumb and forefinger.

But again, it's all speculation at this point. Gonna wait to see what the initial reviews say about recoil and, more importantly reliability.

 

[Junkie]

I wouldn't expect it to be blowback but who knows.

 

[zaitcev]

One clever way to reduce the mass of the bolt may be a lever-delayed blowback. There's a bolt-on 1911 upper working on such principle. But I don't think PKO45 implements it.

 

[zaitcev]

One thing that vaguely concerns me about PKO45 is that it disassembles to the rear. As we all know, Colt started with system almost exactly like this, and then realized that it was unsafe. It was probably okay for a military gun in the 1900s. Steyr 1912 kept that disassembly pin throughout its service, in fact it was adopted later than 1911. Soldiers were just not expected to live very long anyway. However, it's going to take only a couple of users to get hit in the eye with the flying slide in order to bury PKO45.

 

[darkwriter77]

Having a hard time visualizing how exactly that's going to happen. Without seeing a video of precisely how this thing field-strips and/or having had an opportunity to get my hands on one to really understand how the mechanism works, I can't really say one way or the other if it's an "unsafe" pistol by design or not as you suggest. There again, yet another reason it'd probably be best to hold off from buying one as soon as they hit the market and just sit back to see how they perform in the real world for actual owners. Might be reliable and safe, might be a jam-o-matic that shoots slides back at the user, who knows. Question is: Who wants to be among the first to find out first-hand?

EDIT: Right after posting this, I ran across this video posted yesterday. The PKO45 is shown at the 9:38 mark, and they show how the pistol disassembles. Very, very weird but neat design. Still not sure what to think of it, but it looks like we won't see any hands-on real-world user reviews until January 2017 or later...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4-6Z8X2OVw[/ame]

 

[darkwriter77]

Some more details and shooting footage of the PKO45 here:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqsPoIPx4jA[/ame]

I guess I never noticed the manual safety before somehow, or assumed it was a takedown lever or slide stop - still not 100% sure how the heck the thing operates. The idea that this thing ships with an 8-pound trigger AND a passive safety (on the front, kinda weird), AND a manual safety just seems like overkill to me. With a heavy trigger and a passive grip safety, the manual safety seems totally unnecessary - might as well click it off and forget it. The takedown process is shown better in the above video, which looks very simple, although I can see from the video comments that there are some folks that are still worried about the slide shooting off and nailing a shooter in the face - maybe if it sheared off the takedown pin completely on both sides, but otherwise, I'm not seeing how that's possible.

Again, I'm still looking forward to getting my hands on one whenever they show up locally to see just how the finished product feels and operates.