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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anybody tried any of the 90gr Gold Dot hollow points in their 1st or 2nd gen P3AT's yet? Just wondering if this round works "flawlessly" before I buy it.
My problem is that if it does not work, I will have to use only ball ammo since my dept only carries the Gold Dot in our duty guns! Just wondering if anybody has had goodluck with it in their KelTec P3's? Thanks..
 

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MattHappyTrails said:
I have put @ 40 Gold Dots through my PTA3 with no problem.  I've put @ 400 other rounds.  The only problem is my not letting the trigger go all the way foward. Thus it doesn't reset.  I've been spoiled by my Glock.

get over it, it is not a glock, U will get used to releasing the trigger, if not it wn't fire-pure and simple...
 

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Have used them in my 2G for a long time. They cycle perfectly, but so does most everything else.

Rcmodel is right, you really need to shoot a couple of hundred out of YOUR gun in order to have confidence in any ammo for self-defensive purposes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Two Pistol Packer said:
  No .380 JHP round gives enough penetration in a P3AT. I'm thinking about carrying only American Eagle FMJ from now on.

Packer.
I have only been carrying CCI TMJ 95 grn ball in mine for the last 2 years. I figured it worked, why bother.
 

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Everyone has an opinion.
I figure I'm not going to be attacked by wet-pack newspapers.

Loose pit-bulls, or a skinny crack-head in a dirty T-shirt seem a more likely threat to me.

Auto glass and car door sheet metal is not as important to me as it was to the FBI when they set the "minimum penetration" standards for their issue ammo years ago.

I carry Gold Dot or DPX JHP in mine.

If it expands at all and penetrates 6" - 10" or so, it makes much more real organ damage then the icepick wound you will get with RN-FMJ.


rcmodel
 

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TwoPistolPacker is right.

FMJ in a .380
I've seen the tests in gel and wet pack. OK.
Feel YOUR COM! Feel any gel there. Its all bone.

I did an impromptu test at my brothers house on 1/2 inch green cut white oak lathes separated by about 3/8 inch. My niece is a doctor and said it really looked about right.

Wish I had taken pictures.

None of my hollow point cartridges punctured the simulated ribs. Most just penetrated deep enough to stick, leaving 3/4 or more of the bullet protruding in front of the target. (I only remember the Golden Sabre, the other two brands I used have slipped my mind right now)

Most of the FMJ (remington and winchester target stuff) would at least protrude out the back, some even penetrated through the lathes.
CorBon powerball penetrated best. I can only surmise the nylon ball up front adds some slickness to the bullet and helps it penetrate.

As soon as my brother and I make up, I plan to do another test, but be a little more precise and document and take pictures.
(My brother used to be an FFL with full auto weapons and a large stash of large caliber high powered weapons, but he vehemently opposes CCW. We had a big fight. He asked why I carry, and I told him if he had to ask the question, he wouldn't understand the answer. Made him real mad) ;D
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I figured by carrying the FMJ, that it would do better against a windshield or car door, (god forbid that I would ever count on a 380 to fill this role). My thinking is if my primary gun ran dry, was taken, went down, at least I would have something else to use to ward off an attack and/or make an attacker change his mind.

I was always taught in the academy that doing something is better than doing nothing!
 

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FWM said:
(My brother used to be an FFL with full auto weapons and a large stash of large caliber high powered weapons, but he vehemently opposes CCW. We had a big fight. He asked why I carry, and I told him if he had to ask the question, he wouldn't understand the answer. Made him real mad) ;D
An armed society is a polite society. I would try REALLY hard not to make a man with a stash of high powered weapons "real mad." ;)

-Scott
 

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My memory is not as good as it used to be so be gentle but firm if some of my thinking and recollections are wacked out:

1. The FBI recommendation for approx 12-14 inch penetration as I recall is to:  insure the round is capable of penetrating a hand or arm prior to adequately penetrating COM OR to get thru vehicle window glass and still be capable of adequate penetration COM.  The 12-14 inch range was not the minimum but the optimum (as I recall). I think I remember that 9-12 was rated adequate for the expectations imposed. I MAY be wrong.

2. Prior to the P3at I carried snub 38-357 and 44's and these bad boys had no problem with #1 using HPs.  Problem was I could only reasonably conceal about 25% of the time vs almost 100% with the little 380 but I love to shoot the bad boy calibers.  We all know the first rule of gunfighting.

3. It is my recollection that Gold Dots (what I carry) should reliably spread jelly to about 9 inches and DPX to about 10...both with decent expansion. American Eagle (my favorite solid) punches to approx the mid teens.  I may be wrong.

It WAS my opinion that reasonable people could easily differ on 380 ammunition.

HOWEVER there is that interesting thought provoking White Oak post. White oak is tough stuff especially mounted so that it can readily flex.

Several months ago I cut 2x8 and 2x10's by 16 inches long out of fir which were hung and used as multiple quick reaction-multiple targets.  Non +p TARGET 38, 9mm, 44 and 45 went right on thru. Didnt have the 380 at the time.
 

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  FBI OPTIMUM penetration is 18 inches BG. MINIMUM is 12 inches. AE .380 FMJ will reliably penetrate to 16+ inches. This is especially important in Winter for heavy clothing. Even in Summer, the amount of fat you might have to shoot through is a lot. Ribs are tough too, and an arm can easily be in the way.

  There is just not enough power behind the .380 HPs to assure reliable penetration. Most of them did not expand anyway in my Winter heavy test.

  If I have to shoot somebody with a little .380, I want the bullets to go DEEP, where the vitals are, not stop short in a mound of blubber.

Packer.
 

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This may sound strange, after all I've said against them: I'm beginning to think that the accurate UMC JHP may actually BE a good defense round. They don't ever expand, so they will penetrate about 14 inches.

The sharp face HAS to cause SOME more tissue damage than the FMJ. They DEFINITELY group way better than UMC FMJ. I'm going to have to do an accuracy shoot off between the AE FMJ and the UMC JHP and see if they show an advantage.

Maybe if it doen't rain tomorrow.

Packer.
 

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Thanks Packer ... you are correct.

Im posting part of the FBI study below. Even tho it was done years ago I suspect its guidelines remain good for law enforcement and civilians.
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Ammunition Selection Criteria

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity.(33) The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles.

*****For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.
****

Several design approaches have been made in handgun ammunition which are intended to increase the wounding effectiveness of the bullet. Most notable of these is the use of a hollow point bullet designed to expand on impact.

Expansion accomplishes several things. On the positive side, it increases the frontal area of the bullet and thereby increases the amount of tissue disintegrated in the bullets path. On the negative side, expansion limits penetration. It can prevent the bullet from penetrating to vital organs, especially if the projectile is of relatively light mass and the penetration must be through several inches of fat, muscle, or clothing.(34)

Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration. Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.

However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance.(35) Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of the bullet in a cocoon like manner and prevent expansion. Insufficient impact velocity caused by short barrels and/or longer range will prevent expansion, as will simple manufacturing variations. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect.

********
It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.(36)
********

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.

Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.(37)

 

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The One Stop Shot stats show JHP more effective.
I do not rely on this data and used this as one
of many factors for for my decision.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=10&Weight=All

I want penetration and expansion.

http://stevespages.com/page8f380acp.html

I will carry 100% reliable(from my gun) JHP ammunition from one of
the big 5 American companies that have shown
good results in tests.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/90 grain Federal Personal Defense Hydra-Shok.html

I  will practice shot placement at every chance I get, it's more important IMO than a magic bullet.

Be aware, Be ready, Be sure

My .02 with a 2 cent discount :)

Rob

Edit to add,

2PP, DT, KT Range and others used in research.
Thank you for shooting stuff guy's
 
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