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Not sure I follow; are you saying that 5.56 fmj tumbles in flight after 10 meters?
That's what the Army told us. We were also told that after the tumbling begins, if you were hit in the hand, it would rip your arm off.
 

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Not sure I follow; are you saying that 5.56 fmj tumbles in flight after 10 meters?
There was a lot of angst amount the troops when they replaced the 30 cal m14 with a 22 Mattel “toy” gun. A lot of stories were told to bolster their confidence in the weapon.
 

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The film showed a guy completely mow down a mortared brick wall on full auto at about 20 meters. This was before cgi. I was very pleased with its functionality in Vietnam and understand the fascination with the 5.56 now. I was happy not to carry an 18 lb weapon all of the time like the M14.
 

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He may be saying that (IDK), but if it did tumble in flight no one would hit anything with it. I hope he isn't saying that, or if he is he misunderstood, cause that would be BS. Anyone could test this for themselves with a paper target set up at various ranges to see if the bullet is tumbling in the air.

They can tumble with the old twist rate after hitting the flesh target. But flesh and air are 2 very different things. The old twist rate worked fine to deliver the bullet to the target without tumbling. Then the military went to heavier (longer) bullets and the twist rate changed to 1:7 and tumbling after hitting flesh became an iffy proposition. Sometimes it does, but don't count on it.
 

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I am going by memory from 50+ years ago. The mowing down of the brick wall is a for sure memory, but I might have bought into the tumbling part. From what I have now read, the earliest M16 weapons were not twisting right for the 55 grain projectile which caused them to tumble, hence the rumor. I stand corrected (my memory not being what it was). I was issued a later model M16 with the better flash suppressor and many other improvements but still switchable between full and semi automatic. I don't know if they were ever modified for three round bursts or not because I was not a lifer.
 

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The faster twist rate did stabilize the round, the three round bursts came much later. I saw that movie with the brick wall as well, it did serve its purpose, to make us feel better about getting the new Mattel rifles I liked the M14s better myself, although technically, mine was called an M21, I also liked my shotgun a lot at times. But I digress.
 
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Yeah, that kinda makes sense, if you were using 55 gr I suppose it could go that way. The old tumbling 5.56 story has been around since the 60s. But based on real-world use, I have seen them go in one side and out the other. We are even allowed to use .223 on deer up here, just not FMJs. You are also assuming people are using 55 r projectiles, or at least basing your response on that.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just I don't like to see random "expert" from the interwebs word taken as gospel
Well drywall isn't AR500 steel, and it's still going to go through a few walls easily enough. But the 5.56/.223 sheds energy faster, deviates from the straight line path easier, tumbles sooner, and loses energy more quickly. Here's an article which collects a bunch of other articles for us:

to quote the article:
FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun
First up is this older article by R.K. Taubert, a retired FBI agent with over 20 years experience who conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while with the Bureau.​
To quote Mr Taubert, (emphasis mine) ” … As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
“Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.”
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And again on this page, there is testing by Gunsite Training Center Staff which found in a comparison of handgun calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .22 LR, .45 ACP), and rifle caliber .223 (5.56) that:​
“The only calibers which did NOT exit the “house” were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.”
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Then there are the “Box O’ Truth” tests with great pictures where they found, “… Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances … The 12 gauge shotgun went through 4 walls like they were not there … The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall.”
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And this drywall testing concluded, “Moving away from rifle rounds takes us from fascinating discoveries into the realm of mythbusting. Handgun rounds, for instance, may penetrate less than rifle rounds–but only if the rifle rounds in question are full-power ball ammo. The relatively slow speed and heavy weight of handgun bullets make them a poor choice for limiting interior wall penetration, which is why professional door-kicker types have abandoned pistol-caliber submachineguns in favor of .223 carbines.”​
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And this interesting test at outdoorub found “The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going … Even though the .223 rounds start with a lot more energy, they tend to lose it quickly when encountering the barriers in this test … Moral of the story? Don’t trust the mainstream media. Those high-powered, so called “assault weapons” may be safer than your average pistol for inside-the-home defense.”
(NOTE: many of the rounds tested at outdoohub are found on the “approved list” of AR-15 self-defense ammo here.)​

I've seen several tests which stack drywall boards one right after the other in a series with only inches between them. I think the better test, which I saw on Tom Gresham's video channel (somewhere), was when they built walls and set them out at typical room distances of 10 or more feet apart then did the tests. It was interesting to see the flight path deviate significantly, sometimes by yards (ims), and to see the fragments hit the wallboards instead of complete bullets.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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I've seen several tests which stack drywall boards one right after the other in a series with only inches between them. I think the better test, which I saw on Tom Gresham's video channel (somewhere), was when they built walls and set them out at typical room distances of 10 or more feet apart then did the tests. It was interesting to see the flight path deviate significantly, sometimes by yards (ims), and to see the fragments hit the wallboards instead of complete bullets
Oh, I do not doubt that, I have seen what a small limb can do to a .308 while deer hunting and 5.56s deflect off windshields. Bullets do funny things sometimes.
 

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Yup, 5.56 has a terrible reputation for penetration. But the potential for overpenetration into friendlies does theoretically exist. I've never heard of an instance of it though in peacetime.

But indoors, what excuse does anyone have for missing with a shoulder fired weapon at indoor distances? Lack of training/expertise is all I can figure for an excuse and technology is no substitute for training. At least to me it isn't. We as Americans think that if we just throw $ or tech at a problem it's handled. That's not always the case when a problem arises that requires us to actually demonstrate expertise. How many people shoot bullets into paper from the bench and think they can handle what comes their way? That's madness to think that's training.

Too, touch off a .223/5.56 indoors for training without a can and no ear pro' and you won't want to do it twice even for real. Will you have time to don ear pro' during the real thing? Will all family members? Trust me on this, but it's easy to check me, a bottleneck cartridge generating 55k psi is devastating on the eardrums without a can attached to the barrel and fired indoors. Put a can on it to absorb the pressure wave from the blast and it's fine. A stack of newspaper will stop a .223 so it's easy to check what I write. But a 9mm PCC sans can doesn't have that same killer pressure wave and the same PCC with a can is a pussycat.

The 9mm sub2k is a fine HD firearm. But no matter what has been chosen, you should train with it. Buying it doesn't mean one actually knows how to use it.

So how does one train? Maybe not so much for tactics, but competition teaches the basics under stress. For in home tactics I'm pretty sure that can be found online. It involves safe rooms and such, and by safe room I don't mean poured concrete and heavy doors. Just a designated room where everyone gets to that can be fortified against dirtbags coming in. I'm sure there's lots of info online. NRA "Refuse To Be a Victim" covers it. There has to be other info available.
 
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