Community for Kel-Tec Shooters banner
21 - 40 of 64 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
He is saying he can hit the plate not the size of the groups he produces on the plate.
Which, depending on your optic choice, surroundings, target visibility, cross winds, could be quite difficult., Trying to hold tiny groups at 100 yards with a 1or 3x prism (Which is whats on my RFB,RDB and AK) is not super easy...But I do it and thats why I say the RDB can do 1" and 1.5inch groups with the right ammo (and my low magnification scope)
Remember the bullseye targets most folks put up at 100 yards are generally 10x12...But that tells you nothing about the groups produced hitting it...
I have ended up with people shooting my target at 100 yards...
Apart from you getting to shoot what is essentially a preproduction leftover with a 1:9 barrel that was likely not part of mass production and may or may not have been assembled with greater care (it's KT, who really knows)...
I fully believe you can produce 3 shot groups at 1.5 MOA at 50yds. I'll say up front you have better eyes and are a much better shot than I. But at 100, you seem to be posting 2-3 MOA, not 1.5, and not 1 (other than the magical 50gr Fiocchi).
odinforever2000's range reports
Of note, it's interesting how the MDR had horizontal spread, while the RDB had vertical spread in every comparison you posted. (apart from the magical 50gr)


Another very reputable report of the RDB's accuracy from MarkCO:
The RDB was used in the American Marksman competition at CMP Talladega this past weekend. 37 competitors used in on a close in stage shooting 10+ rounds from 5 to 20 yards. They had previously practiced with it for 10 rounds shooting off a bi-pod at 100 yards. That pushed the round count on this gun up over 2000 total. I also used to cut the field from 10 to the final three.

The final 10 had to shoot 5 rounds at 200 and 5 rounds at 300 for score on normal CMP Targets. It was sighted in at 100 yards and the 2nd dot on the MTAC 1-4 was exactly on at 200 while the 3rd round was exactly on at 300 yards. Scores ranged from about 40 to 93 (100 possible). I personally shot it twice before the competitors and got a 100 and a 98. Used Aguila 55 grain FMJs. Accuracy was a little better with this load than the other 55 fmj load I tried.

I dialed for 600 yards and shot one group of 5 for a score of 47 (50 possible).

So, with 55 grain ammo, capable of holding the 9 ring on NRA Hi-Power targets at 200, 300 and 600 yards. Given the weight, and barrel profile, it does shoot better than I figured it would. I will try to get some more data in the next month or so with some 50, 60 and 69 grain match grade ammo and see what it likes.
if the 9 ring of a 200yd target is ~8", 10 ring is something like ~4.5"? That puts the RDB at 2-2.5 MOA in the hands of someone who almost certainly has more time behind a rifle than any of us. If my specimen could do that, I'd be happy. But the majority of reports seem to find the RDB is a 3 MOA gun if you actually pattern it.

Because Ive shot at steel..I can hit an 8 inch targets but my groups are not 8 inches wide on the target. This is why I shoot at paper targets (with a powerful spotting scope) where I can see what groups I'm producing the paper itself is 10x12.The information you arent getting in MadRonin statement was how small the groups were at that distance on that media.
It works the other way too though. A 6 MOA gun is going to hit a 4 MOA target anywhere from 15% to 60% of the time through sheer dumb luck, dependant on how close to a true 6-sigma 6 MOA your gun actually is. So if he's saying he can hit an 8" target at 200yds first time, every time, on demand (it's 3 gun, I assume there is a barricade or rest of some sort), then he is truly sub 4 MOA. If he misses just once, ever, then he, as a complex combination of shooter+gun+conditions+ammo+whatever-he-had-for-breakfast, is greater than 4 MOA and wouldn't it be nice if the RDB was a true 2 MOA gun so you have the wiggle room to make an 8" hit at 200yds even if you have a bad trigger pull or a gust pulled your round an inch to the left or you got hungry and took a bad sight picture cause you wanted the stage to be over?

I'll say it again, it's not 1970 anymore. Any bubba can go out and buy himself a $200 AR barrel that will print 2 MOA. The M27 will print 2 MOA with milspec M855. Why is the expectation that a gun designed in 2013 would consistently print 2-2.5 MOA without testing every ammo in existence so outlandish and abhorrent to you guys?
¯\(ツ)

Feel free to ignore this thread since you both already own sub 2 MOA RDBs and my little experiment has nothing to offer you. No hard feeling, apart from a little jealousy. The rest of us will have to live with our 3+ MOA specimens.
 

· Registered
RFB18 (Gen1) RDB17 (1:9 )
Joined
·
723 Posts
Apart from you getting to shoot what is essentially a preproduction leftover with a 1:9 barrel that was likely not part of mass production and may or may not have been assembled with greater care (it's KT, who really knows)...
I fully believe you can produce 3 shot groups at 1.5 MOA at 50yds. I'll say up front you have better eyes and are a much better shot than I. But at 100, you seem to be posting 2-3 MOA, not 1.5, and not 1 (other than the magical 50gr Fiocchi).
odinforever2000's range reports
Of note, it's interesting how the MDR had horizontal spread, while the RDB had vertical spread in every comparison you posted. (apart from the magical 50gr)


Another very reputable report of the RDB's accuracy from MarkCO:


if the 9 ring of a 200yd target is ~8", 10 ring is something like ~4.5"? That puts the RDB at 2-2.5 MOA in the hands of someone who almost certainly has more time behind a rifle than any of us. If my specimen could do that, I'd be happy. But the majority of reports seem to find the RDB is a 3 MOA gun if you actually pattern it.


It works the other way too though. A 6 MOA gun is going to hit a 4 MOA target anywhere from 15% to 60% of the time through sheer dumb luck, dependant on how close to a true 6-sigma 6 MOA your gun actually is. So if he's saying he can hit an 8" target at 200yds first time, every time, on demand (it's 3 gun, I assume there is a barricade or rest of some sort), then he is truly sub 4 MOA. If he misses just once, ever, then he, as a complex combination of shooter+gun+conditions+ammo+whatever-he-had-for-breakfast, is greater than 4 MOA and wouldn't it be nice if the RDB was a true 2 MOA gun so you have the wiggle room to make an 8" hit at 200yds even if you have a bad trigger pull or a gust pulled your round an inch to the left or you got hungry and took a bad sight picture cause you wanted the stage to be over?

I'll say it again, it's not 1970 anymore. Any bubba can go out and buy himself a $200 AR barrel that will print 2 MOA. The M27 will print 2 MOA with milspec M855. Why is the expectation that a gun designed in 2013 would consistently print 2-2.5 MOA without testing every ammo in existence so outlandish and abhorrent to you guys?
¯\(ツ)

Feel free to ignore this thread since you both already own sub 2 MOA RDBs and my little experiment has nothing to offer you. No hard feeling, apart from a little jealousy. The rest of us will have to live with our 3+ MOA specimens.
Your not wrong..I can do 1.6moa averaged between (2) 3 shot groups..but that's mostly for adjusting zero at that distance (and that I like low magnification lol).1.5 moa is my average with the 50gr fiocchi. As I have been out with some more since that test.

It took alot of ammo testing to find stuff that shot under 2 moa. I kept going from that workup between the RDB and the MDR.
The MDR..is kinda a weird beast and I have added other folks targets to a reddit thread to track what folks are getting with different ammo (6.5cm 556 and 308)..The Horizontal spread gets worse as you go up in bullet weight and caliber. Do I believe it can do the 1.5moa the manufacture (DT) claims..Sure..but I also believe its gonna take finding what it likes. Unfortunately there are too many fan boys who will say the gun shoots sub moa consistently and never show proof of such.

I actually got the Idea of the 50gr pill from another gentleman's extensive ammo test with the 1:9 Rdb (included below).


If I'm not shooting the same ammo out of the RDB vs the MDR (1:8 Wylde)..its usually my Ar (Stag 15 also 1:9) and they tend to group similarly for most things..Tho..there are times when the one throws a huge group the other doesn't.,I'm also aware bullet/seating/powder combinations work better in some things than others. Probably why the 50gr Fiocchi works well and the 62gr variant is still under 2moa.
In my limited testing with (3) 556 guns..
To me that if some are wanting better accuracy, ya got to shop around for what something likes (I don't count handloads as thats not something everyone has access to).
This is what Keltec says worked in their Survival....Unfortunately. I don't have any of that in my area locally (typically how I source the ammo I use) to see if it show's as good in my 1:9 Rdb.


I am semi curious what the OP/you gets for accuracy out of his DIY project and what ammo you choose to use for this test.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
361 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 8 inch shots at 200 yds - Isn't that 4MOA? So, that is nothing to brag about. Any mediocre shooter could probably do 4MOA, am I right?
That's my point. The OP mentioned that it was better to have a gun capable of 1.5-2 MOA to make a 200 yard shot that you just HAD to take. That a 3.5-4 MOA rifle really couldn't cut it. Don't ask me why a civilian would try to make that shot, but that was the premise presented. I don't need a sub-2 MOA rifle to make a head shot at 200 yards consistently. And that's offhand. But I can get much better groups at 200 yds from a bench or sitting crossleg. I don't do prone anymore.
 

· Registered
RFB18 (Gen1) RDB17 (1:9 )
Joined
·
723 Posts
That's my point. The OP mentioned that it was better to have a gun capable of 1.5-2 MOA to make a 200 yard shot that you just HAD to take. That a 3.5-4 MOA rifle really couldn't cut it. Don't ask me why a civilian would try to make that shot, but that was the premise presented. I don't need a sub-2 MOA rifle to make a head shot at 200 yards consistently. And that's offhand. But I can get much better groups at 200 yds from a bench or sitting crossleg. I don't do prone anymore.
Off hand...at 200 yards is pretty impressive.. Its hard to see some targets at 100 with my 3x prism AND still hit them off hand.. Well done.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
Just an errata, I screwed up the math and exponented instead of squared in my spreadsheet. The odds of hitting a 4 MOA target with a 6 MOA gun just by pure statistical noise are ~44% to 80%, depending on the true distribution of the gun. Even I could hit that with enough rounds downrange, assuming I could see the target. (I knew something was fishy with the numbers before)

Your not wrong..I can do 1.6moa averaged between (2) 3 shot groups..but that's mostly for adjusting zero at that distance (and that I like low magnification lol).1.5 moa is my average with the 50gr fiocchi. As I have been out with some more since that test.

It took alot of ammo testing to find stuff that shot under 2 moa. I kept going from that workup between the RDB and the MDR.
The MDR..is kinda a weird beast and I have added other folks targets to a reddit thread to track what folks are getting with different ammo (6.5cm 556 and 308)..The Horizontal spread gets worse as you go up in bullet weight and caliber. Do I believe it can do the 1.5moa the manufacture (DT) claims..Sure..but I also believe its gonna take finding what it likes. Unfortunately there are too many fan boys who will say the gun shoots sub moa consistently and never show proof of such.

I actually got the Idea of the 50gr pill from another gentleman's extensive ammo test with the 1:9 Rdb (included below).


If I'm not shooting the same ammo out of the RDB vs the MDR (1:8 Wylde)..its usually my Ar (Stag 15 also 1:9) and they tend to group similarly for most things..Tho..there are times when the one throws a huge group the other doesn't.,I'm also aware bullet/seating/powder combinations work better in some things than others. Probably why the 50gr Fiocchi works well and the 62gr variant is still under 2moa.
In my limited testing with (3) 556 guns..
To me that if some are wanting better accuracy, ya got to shop around for what something likes (I don't count handloads as thats not something everyone has access to).
This is what Keltec says worked in their Survival....Unfortunately. I don't have any of that in my area locally (typically how I source the ammo I use) to see if it show's as good in my 1:9 Rdb.


I am semi curious what the OP/you gets for accuracy out of his DIY project and what ammo you choose to use for this test.
Lots of cool info in there, though I am skeptical of those performance numbers from KT...
I do appreciate all the work you've put in to test all those loads.

I have a bunch of assorted rounds I could test, most are m193 or equivalent.
  • 77gr HPBT S&B
  • 64gr Win Deer Season XP (the necks and bullet seating on this stuff is all over the place, do not recommend)
  • Hornady Frontier 223 55gr HP (the RDB hates this stuff)
  • 55gr PMC Bronze
  • Hornady Frontier 55gr m193 (bulk)
  • IMI 55gr M193
I don't know how much of this I'll be able to get through on Wednesday, but I will post my results if the zero holds. If it doesn't then everything is terrible and all is for naught. 🦙

Pre-validation:
  • 100yds (+/- 1ft)
  • Holosun 503C + 3x Sig Juliet Magnifier
  • 2 strings of 5 rounds on a single 8" target, 3 minutes between strings.
  • -edit- take best of 9 shots, measure to center of impact (1 flier allowance)
  • From bipod or sandbag support, prone
 

· Registered
RFB18 (Gen1) RDB17 (1:9 )
Joined
·
723 Posts
Just an errata, I screwed up the math and exponented instead of squared in my spreadsheet. The odds of hitting a 4 MOA target with a 6 MOA gun just by pure statistical noise are ~44% to 80%, depending on the true distribution of the gun. Even I could hit that with enough rounds downrange, assuming I could see the target. (I knew something was fishy with the numbers before)



Lots of cool info in there, though I am skeptical of those performance numbers from KT...
I do appreciate all the work you've put in to test all those loads.

I have a bunch of assorted rounds I could test, most are m193 or equivalent.
  • 77gr HPBT S&B
  • 64gr Win Deer Season XP (the necks and bullet seating on this stuff is all over the place, do not recommend)
  • Hornady Frontier 223 55gr HP (the RDB hates this stuff)
  • 55gr PMC Bronze
  • Hornady Frontier 55gr m193 (bulk)
  • IMI 55gr M193
I don't know how much of this I'll be able to get through on Wednesday, but I will post my results if the zero holds. If it doesn't then everything is terrible and all is for naught. 🦙

Pre-validation:
  • 100yds (+/- 1ft)
  • Holosun 503C + 3x Sig Juliet Magnifier
  • 2 strings of 5 rounds on a single 8" target, 3 minutes between strings.
  • From bipod or sandbag support, prone
I haven't been able to find anymore frontier. I got the 55gr-75gr when I visited the in-laws (I did get a solid 2moa with the 55gr (In my RDB) but the AR15 shot it a hair smaller at 1.8moa)...
Havent seen those rounds available since..Ive shot PMC (I like Xtac tho) but I don't recall what it did in my rifle..So I'm curios to see what it does in yours.
Also the IMI m193. (Is that sold in local stores where you live or did you order it online)? Ive been meaning to try their Razorcore 77gr..
Im figuring the 77gr S&B does best..

Good luck on your testing. (At least you dont have to worry about your top rail coming loose...That ruined my last big test.)
 

· Registered
RFB18 (Gen1) RDB17 (1:9 )
Joined
·
723 Posts
Just an errata, I screwed up the math and exponented instead of squared in my spreadsheet. The odds of hitting a 4 MOA target with a 6 MOA gun just by pure statistical noise are ~44% to 80%, depending on the true distribution of the gun. Even I could hit that with enough rounds downrange, assuming I could see the target. (I knew something was fishy with the numbers before)



Lots of cool info in there, though I am skeptical of those performance numbers from KT...
I do appreciate all the work you've put in to test all those loads.

I have a bunch of assorted rounds I could test, most are m193 or equivalent.
  • 77gr HPBT S&B
  • 64gr Win Deer Season XP (the necks and bullet seating on this stuff is all over the place, do not recommend)
  • Hornady Frontier 223 55gr HP (the RDB hates this stuff)
  • 55gr PMC Bronze
  • Hornady Frontier 55gr m193 (bulk)
  • IMI 55gr M193
I don't know how much of this I'll be able to get through on Wednesday, but I will post my results if the zero holds. If it doesn't then everything is terrible and all is for naught. 🦙

Pre-validation:
  • 100yds (+/- 1ft)
  • Holosun 503C + 3x Sig Juliet Magnifier
  • 2 strings of 5 rounds on a single 8" target, 3 minutes between strings.
  • From bipod or sandbag support, prone
A guy from the Bullpup forum showed me how to set one of these up with the info I had. But yea..depending on depending on the ammo..I pretty much have groups that just climb.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
I haven't been able to find anymore frontier. I got the 55gr-75gr when I visited the in-laws (I did get a solid 2moa with the 55gr (In my RDB) but the AR15 shot it a hair smaller at 1.8moa)...
Havent seen those rounds available since..Ive shot PMC (I like Xtac tho) but I don't recall what it did in my rifle..So I'm curios to see what it does in yours.
Also the IMI m193. (Is that sold in local stores where you live or did you order it online)? Ive been meaning to try their Razorcore 77gr..
Im figuring the 77gr S&B does best..

Good luck on your testing. (At least you dont have to worry about your top rail coming loose...That ruined my last big test.)
I buy all of my ammo online these days. I got the frontier stuff local pre-pandemic during a Christmas sale but I don't usually see it on shelves. I wish I could tell you what PMC typically did in my rifle before the chopping, but it was all over the place (sorta why I ended up chopping it). One of the frustrations was my groups opening up at 100 but tightening at 200 one day, then keeping 1.5 MOA at 100 and off the target stand at 200 the next range visit.

I got ~2MOA with the PMC Bronze through the AUG A3M1 at 10x last Wednesday at 200 for what it's worth (7rds + 1 flier). Opened up to ~4 MOA at 300yds (n=13, 1 flier) but a lot of that was me.
200yd, PMC Bronze, AUG
300yd, PMC Bronze, AUG

At 300 again, this time 2.9 MOA (n=11, 1 flier) all 12 shots landed on paper. Clearly have a windage/pulling problem to the right. AUG is 1:9 twist, 16", nitrided.

Wood Wall Beige Tints and shades Rectangle
 

· Registered
Joined
·
361 Posts
You honestly can not conceive why a civilian would need to take a 200yd head shot?

If you can not make that shot when SHTF, you are in deep kimchi. Might as well lie down and have your brain feasted on by zombies. LOL
We're not talking about TEOTWAWKI. In the real world, if you're shooting someone at 200 yds, you'd better be able to justify it, because that's not self defense. Or at least, a DA probably won't see it that way.

In a zombie apocalypse, why on earth would I shoot a zombie at 200 yds? It's not like they can see me at that distance, so why would I give my position away to other zombies in the area? ;):p
 

· Registered
Joined
·
361 Posts
Off hand...at 200 yards is pretty impressive.. Its hard to see some targets at 100 with my 3x prism AND still hit them off hand.. Well done.
Thanks. To be fair, I'm not doing that all day long. I tried the 1x PA micro prism and it didn't fill role that I wanted. I opted for a 1-8 PA LPVO. The PA LPVO adds more weight than I wanted, but until I'm ready to shell out cash for the new 1-8 from them, it's what I've got to work with. I also have an older PA 2.5x prism, but the reticle is practically unusable, and it weighs as much as my LPVO.
 

· Registered
RFB18 (Gen1) RDB17 (1:9 )
Joined
·
723 Posts
Thanks. To be fair, I'm not doing that all day long. I tried the 1x PA micro prism and it didn't fill role that I wanted. I opted for a 1-8 PA LPVO. The PA LPVO adds more weight than I wanted, but until I'm ready to shell out cash for the new 1-8 from them, it's what I've got to work with. I also have an older PA 2.5x prism, but the reticle is practically unusable, and it weighs as much as my LPVO.
Yea...Arms get tired..Eyes get tired..but still that's pretty good.
I like the PA micro but I keep them on my AKs...Funner to shoot with on that gun (well thats everyone tells me that shoots it anyway..).. 34mm tube LPVOs add like 2lbs to the rifle (at least thats what mine did for my MDR)..Which is a lil too much added weight on my RDB so I stick with the 3.5x prisms and call it good (My personal rule for intermediate guns is that they have to weight under 9lbs unloaded with everything on them..)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Bullpups were never meant to be precision rifles. They are workhorses that are more than capable of performing the task for which they were designed - CQB in a compact, easy to maneuver package.
Can they make precise shots? Sure. But that is not what they were designed for.
We as civilians have the luxury now of being able to buy or build an AR capable of being precision rifles.
We're not talking about TEOTWAWKI. In the real world, if you're shooting someone at 200 yds, you'd better be able to justify it, because that's not self defense. Or at least, a DA probably won't see it that way.
I don't know about you, but I can make head shots (eight inch plate) with my RFB and RDB at 200 yds, and I don't consider either to be a precision rifle.
Look man, I was trying not to engage in this convo and I've given both you and odin a way to gracefully leave this thread without loosing face. Odin decided to stay engaged on topics that are productive and I appreciate that. You and I obviously disagree on a lot of fundamental concepts about the history of firearms design and aren't going to convince each other anytime soon. You are obviously a very good shot with a steady hand and would never ever miss an 8" plate at 200yds shooting freehand. This thread clearly has no value to you.

I'd appreciate it if you would be the better man and disengage from JoJo's baiting and go about your day.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
361 Posts
Look man, I was trying not to engage in this convo and I've given both you and odin a way to gracefully leave this thread without loosing face. Odin decided to stay engaged on topics that are productive and I appreciate that. You and I obviously disagree on a lot of fundamental concepts about the history of firearms design and aren't going to convince each other anytime soon. You are obviously a very good shot with a steady hand and would never ever miss an 8" plate at 200yds shooting freehand. This thread clearly has no value to you.

I'd appreciate it if you would be the better man and disengage from JoJo's baiting and go about your day.
You seem to have taken this as some sort of personal affront. Far from it. I simply asked why cut up a perfectly good rifle to make it something it never was meant to be. It's your gun, so do with it as you will. Doesn't mean I'm not going to question the rationale. Who knows, maybe you'll figure out what no other weapon designer in the past 50 years has been able (or motivated) to do, and create a do-it-all precision bullpup rifle.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
We're not talking about TEOTWAWKI. In the real world, if you're shooting someone at 200 yds, you'd better be able to justify it, because that's not self defense. Or at least, a DA probably won't see it that way.

In a zombie apocalypse, why on earth would I shoot a zombie at 200 yds? It's not like they can see me at that distance, so why would I give my position away to other zombies in the area? ;):p
You may not be interested in any SHTF or zombie situation, but I am. That is my primary purpose for this rifle.

And once again, you could not conceive of a situation that you might need to shoot a zombie at 200yds. My goodness, either you lack any tactical sense or you are simply baiting me. Since, I don't believe you are totally tactically clueless, I'll assume that you are simply baiting me so I'll disengage and not allow myself to be drawn into a long fruitless discussion.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
A guy from the Bullpup forum showed me how to set one of these up with the info I had. But yea..depending on depending on the ammo..I pretty much have groups that just climb.
Those fiocchi groups look awesome. There might be something to what you are saying about looking for the right round.

My question is, if fiocchi have been excellent for you, why are you constantly suggesting that I look for a round that my rifle likes. In other words, are you saying my rifle might not favor fiocchi's. If you believe that, what factors would influence one RDB liking fiocchi's and not another RDB?

To state my question in a different way, why don't I just grab some fiocchi's and call it a day since you have already found those rounds to be superior. Why do I have to go thru the trouble of firing hundreds or thousands of rounds to find "what my rifle likes"?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Those fiocchi groups look awesome. There might be something to what you are saying about looking for the right round.

My question is, if fiocchi have been excellent for you, why are you constantly suggesting that I look for a round that my rifle likes. In other words, are you saying my rifle might not favor fiocchi's. If you believe that, what factors would influence one RDB liking fiocchi's and not another RDB?
Odin has a 1 in 9 twist barrel that was leftover from the pre-production guntoober marketing blitz. His exact results and possibly even the trends are unlikely to carry over to the production 1 in 7 twist barrels. Alas, if it were only that easy. Hopefully, the heavier bullets do better in the 1 in 7 (which was why KT made the change, everyone online was complaining about 1 in 9).
 

· Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Thank you. Feel free to keep asking me (OP) questions about the actual project or the results.
Yes, do you have cost figures? How much did this foreend grip cost you? How long did it take you to manufacture it?

Are you making it to sell? If so, how much?

They look so cool that I am getting very tempted although I really like the stock handguard.
 
21 - 40 of 64 Posts
Top