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13 Posts
Solving my P-3AT issues
I recently bought a new P3AT for CCW. After a few range sessions, I became rather disappointed with multiple FTF & FTE ‘s with almost every clip shot. I came to KTOG and read through all the threads on FTF & FTE and realized I wasn’t alone. I tried some of the posted solutions but still couldn’t get it to operate reliably. So, I started tinkering on my own and thought I would share my methods and results.
First, let me tell you all a little about myself and also describe the particular issues I found with the KT P3AT. I haven’t been around handguns for almost 40 years now but just started shooting again recently. I am not a gunsmith but have a pretty good mechanical aptitude and have made my living troubleshooting, repairing, and in some cases designing and building mechanical devices for forty + years. I have a small machine shop so I have no problem “fixing” things. I figured, how hard can it be to figure this thing out?
After the first range session (about 30 rounds) I had at least one FTF or FTE on every clip. I disassembled the 3at and the first thing that I noticed was brass shavings spread all over and mixed in with some aluminum shavings. I studied the frame and slide closely and found that the cases were hitting on the frame during ejection. This has been mentioned here on KTOG and of course the two solutions are either to not worry about it, it will get better in time after the excess metal wears off, or to file off enough metal until the cases no longer hit. OK, I did that.
After the next range session, I no longer saw aluminum but still had a fair amount of brass shavings afterward, and still lots of FTF & FTE. I studied the extractor closely and found that the lower point of the claw was gouging the cases as they were being chambered. I thought was a poor design, so I filed the point to a round edge and meticulously fed empty cases through the extractor with the slide off the gun, and trimmed the extractor until the brass flowed smoothly. Then, off to the range again. This time no more brass shavings and the spent cases weren’t gouged. Still, plenty of FTF & FTE.
Next I addressed the FTF (failure to feed). I found that the first round to chamber would hang up on the feed ramp. I considered the old “fluff & buff” trick, but after manually working the action without the recoil springs installed, I realized the hang-up was not the feed-ramp, rather it has to do with the magazine lips extending to far forward. It seems that as a round is stripped from the magazine, it needs to angle up slightly. At that point, the bottom of the case needs to push down on the rest of the rounds in the clip thereby compressing the magazine spring. The solution is to slightly bend the corners of the front of the magazine lips open just a wee bit. This solution has also been mentioned here on KTOG. Back to the range. Now we have excellent feeding of the first round but now I was facing lots of failure to extract.
Back at the workbench, I spent hours trying to find out exactly what was causing this symptom. Finally, I noticed a bit of collision wear on the top of the extractor claw. Closer examination revealed that the far rear end of the barrel assembly (chamber hood? Don’t know what it’s called) right hand side was colliding with the extractor during the very beginning of the extraction process. This doesn’t show up during slow working of the action. It ONLY happens when a round is fired. The collision pushes the extractor to the right and the claw pops off of the spent case. Ah hah!! I took the dremmel tool to that part of the barrel assembly (chamber hood?) and ground off enough metal to eliminate collisions. Back to the range yet again.
Today, I shot 50 rounds flawlessly for the very first time. I found the inside very clean with NO metal shavings and all the spent brass is in fine shape. I am now a happy man and now feel comfortable using this weapon for CCW.
Now, to the real point of my post. Sorry this is taking so long, but that last problem I found involving the collision between the extractor and the barrel assembly, I haven’t seen mentioned here yet. What I am wondering is, isn’t the Kel Tec factory interested in enough machining to prevent collisions? Most solutions given are F&B and shoot more rounds. True, wearing in a new gun (with problems like I was having) will eventually solve the problems, but at what cost? To me, wearing in a machine is to seat mating parts, not to eliminate collisions. There should be NO collisions of parts that are not meant to mate. And further, when will one know if their gun is reliable enough for CCW with this method?
OK, now for my final opinion of the P-3AT. When it works, it’s a really nice shooter for its size. Its lightweight and easy conceal-ability make it a valuable piece in my collection. I like it so much for CCW that I may just buy another when they become more available. The next one however will get some machine work done on it before its first trip to the range.
Comments? Thanks for reading.
Tom
I recently bought a new P3AT for CCW. After a few range sessions, I became rather disappointed with multiple FTF & FTE ‘s with almost every clip shot. I came to KTOG and read through all the threads on FTF & FTE and realized I wasn’t alone. I tried some of the posted solutions but still couldn’t get it to operate reliably. So, I started tinkering on my own and thought I would share my methods and results.
First, let me tell you all a little about myself and also describe the particular issues I found with the KT P3AT. I haven’t been around handguns for almost 40 years now but just started shooting again recently. I am not a gunsmith but have a pretty good mechanical aptitude and have made my living troubleshooting, repairing, and in some cases designing and building mechanical devices for forty + years. I have a small machine shop so I have no problem “fixing” things. I figured, how hard can it be to figure this thing out?
After the first range session (about 30 rounds) I had at least one FTF or FTE on every clip. I disassembled the 3at and the first thing that I noticed was brass shavings spread all over and mixed in with some aluminum shavings. I studied the frame and slide closely and found that the cases were hitting on the frame during ejection. This has been mentioned here on KTOG and of course the two solutions are either to not worry about it, it will get better in time after the excess metal wears off, or to file off enough metal until the cases no longer hit. OK, I did that.
After the next range session, I no longer saw aluminum but still had a fair amount of brass shavings afterward, and still lots of FTF & FTE. I studied the extractor closely and found that the lower point of the claw was gouging the cases as they were being chambered. I thought was a poor design, so I filed the point to a round edge and meticulously fed empty cases through the extractor with the slide off the gun, and trimmed the extractor until the brass flowed smoothly. Then, off to the range again. This time no more brass shavings and the spent cases weren’t gouged. Still, plenty of FTF & FTE.
Next I addressed the FTF (failure to feed). I found that the first round to chamber would hang up on the feed ramp. I considered the old “fluff & buff” trick, but after manually working the action without the recoil springs installed, I realized the hang-up was not the feed-ramp, rather it has to do with the magazine lips extending to far forward. It seems that as a round is stripped from the magazine, it needs to angle up slightly. At that point, the bottom of the case needs to push down on the rest of the rounds in the clip thereby compressing the magazine spring. The solution is to slightly bend the corners of the front of the magazine lips open just a wee bit. This solution has also been mentioned here on KTOG. Back to the range. Now we have excellent feeding of the first round but now I was facing lots of failure to extract.
Back at the workbench, I spent hours trying to find out exactly what was causing this symptom. Finally, I noticed a bit of collision wear on the top of the extractor claw. Closer examination revealed that the far rear end of the barrel assembly (chamber hood? Don’t know what it’s called) right hand side was colliding with the extractor during the very beginning of the extraction process. This doesn’t show up during slow working of the action. It ONLY happens when a round is fired. The collision pushes the extractor to the right and the claw pops off of the spent case. Ah hah!! I took the dremmel tool to that part of the barrel assembly (chamber hood?) and ground off enough metal to eliminate collisions. Back to the range yet again.
Today, I shot 50 rounds flawlessly for the very first time. I found the inside very clean with NO metal shavings and all the spent brass is in fine shape. I am now a happy man and now feel comfortable using this weapon for CCW.
Now, to the real point of my post. Sorry this is taking so long, but that last problem I found involving the collision between the extractor and the barrel assembly, I haven’t seen mentioned here yet. What I am wondering is, isn’t the Kel Tec factory interested in enough machining to prevent collisions? Most solutions given are F&B and shoot more rounds. True, wearing in a new gun (with problems like I was having) will eventually solve the problems, but at what cost? To me, wearing in a machine is to seat mating parts, not to eliminate collisions. There should be NO collisions of parts that are not meant to mate. And further, when will one know if their gun is reliable enough for CCW with this method?
OK, now for my final opinion of the P-3AT. When it works, it’s a really nice shooter for its size. Its lightweight and easy conceal-ability make it a valuable piece in my collection. I like it so much for CCW that I may just buy another when they become more available. The next one however will get some machine work done on it before its first trip to the range.
Comments? Thanks for reading.
Tom
