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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The FedEx guy delivered the CorBon DPX this morning (Saturday ????) from "The gun source", so I decided to carry the P3AT today; I had some errands to do, at "Target" (seemed appropriate); I carried it in a "Defender" belly-band under my shirt, cross-draw style; the shirt has snap buttons so I left one open.

The carry is very comfortable, I cannot feel the gun at all, standing or sitting in the truck; totally invisible, I asked my wife where is the pistol, she had to pat me to find it (next time I'll try that with a "Smart Carry  ;D ).

However, in the parking lots and the stores, I didn't feel comfortable:  I have carried my Glocks for over 10 years, shot many thousands of rounds, a good part in competition, I know I can make a successful head shot at 30 feet, a COM at 50 feet.
With the 100 rds of ball ammo I shot in the Kel-Tec, I am far from this level of confidence.
I felt seriously "under-gunned", not so much because of the lesser performance of the .380, but mainly because of my lack of training.
 

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You might want to consider another 100 FMJ just be on the safe side. It will also give you the additional shooting time you mention. Have you put any DPX through it yet? You didn't mention firing any in the post. If you mention elsewhere, I apologize for missing it. I  have always put at least one box of my carry ammo through my guns before carrying.

How many boxes did you buy? GoldenLoki has tested the DPX with good results: http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm. I've considered a switch in my 9mm ammo away from Critical Defense due to bullet energy but the CD looks good in the P3AT and isn't much below the DPX according to GL's findings. Let us know how the DPX cycles, feeds, and how much recoil it has. I've found that the CD has very little. I would very interested in the info in case I do decide to change the carry ammo I use in the P3AT.
 

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Just a little info i discovered the other day shooting my critical defense in my Pf9.
Every once and a while I will shoot some rounds into an old ballistic vest to check expansion.
I've shot .357/.38/9mm/.380/.22  -----  The critical defense blew right thru the vest several times while stopping everything else.  Not sure why, but it did it several times.  Level IIA vest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I did an "advanced F&B before starting to shoot and didn't have any problems during the first 100 rds.

No, I haven't shot the DPX ammo yet; got it this morning, local ranges do not allow "outside" ammo and do not have DPX ::)

I looked at the ballistics on Goldenloki a few days ago, I am very skeptical ... does not come close to other figures I have seen.

Will keep you updated when I get to try the DPX.
 

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Published ballistics by ammo companies cannot be trusted. The fine print often shows they didn't actually use real guns for testing. Often they use generic barrels with a chamber and firing pin. It is often the reality that for estimating revolver ammo velocity they use a barrel with a port cut into to simulate firing their ammo in a revolver. For semi-auto simulation they often use barrels over five inches in length. In short, the longer the barrel, the higher the velocity and energy. In one report I read about a decade ago on the tactics ammo companies use, one manufacturer had used a 8 inch barrel in order to publish very high numbers on an auto-loader round. I wish I could get my hands on that report to post it here.

GL's tests are out of an actual P-11 with its 3.1 inch barrel which is also the same length as the PF-9. GL as an independent gunsmith. He has no vested interest and only wishes to publish actual velocity and energy numbers.

I would urge you to put some DPX rounds downrange soon. It is dangerous to carry a gun with ammo you've not proofed.

[edit]I did find this pdf. It deals with the 300WSM not handgun ammo but the cover photo illustrates the use of a ballistics barrel being used instead of a production rifle. http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/3-Inch 300 WSM.pdf[/edit]

[edit]I found these: http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Rapid...ewPage.cfm&PageId=3390&CompanyId=1246

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3854331.html

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=637265

[/edit]
 

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Any handgun , any, is inadequate for a gun fight. You should feel under-gunned with any pistol. A handgun is the 'fire extinguisher' of personal safety (ask a fireman what they use em for , but believe me ,everyone of 'em has 1/some at home  ;))).
If a pistol is 'all ' you got to save ya ,feel afraid , very afraid.(your best weapon and the one most used should be between your ears)
That said , I go out with a P 32 a lot. Today we went shopping in Kansas City, I had something extra tagging along and a backup partner who carries as well. Try using the P3 as a BUG ,pretty soon you'l find places to go that it 'fits the bill' for  ;)
 

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I also feel more comfortable when carrying my Glock 26 (P3AT is almost always still carried in my front pocket as a BUG to the Glock). But, most often I'm just carrying my P3AT and a folding knife; I'd be way more uncomfortable if I were carrying no gun at all.

How do you feel about lasers on hand guns? There are two lasers, ArmaLaser & Crimson Trace LaserGuard, that mount nicely on the P3AT.


Take care...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
billjohnso20 said:
Published ballistics by ammo companies cannot be trusted. The fine print often shows they didn't actually use real guns for testing. Often they use generic barrels with a chamber and firing pin. It is often the reality that for estimating revolver ammo velocity they use a barrel with a port cut into to simulate firing their ammo in a revolver. For semi-auto simulation they often use barrels over five inches in length. In short, the longer the barrel, the higher the velocity and energy. In one report I read about a decade ago on the tactics ammo companies use, one manufacturer had used a 8 inch barrel in order to publish very high numbers on an auto-loader round. I wish I could get my hands on that report to post it here.

GL's tests are out of an actual P-11 with its 3.1 inch barrel which is also the same length as the PF-9. GL as an independent gunsmith. He has no vested interest and only wishes to publish actual velocity and energy numbers.

I would urge you to put some DPX rounds downrange soon. It is dangerous to carry a gun with ammo you've not proofed.

[edit]I did find this pdf. It deals with the 300WSM not handgun ammo but the cover photo illustrates the use of a ballistics barrel being used instead of a production rifle. http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/3-Inch 300 WSM.pdf[/edit]

[edit]I found these: http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Rapid...ewPage.cfm&PageId=3390&CompanyId=1246

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3854331.html

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=637265

[/edit]
Thanks for all the info.

You are right on the effect of the barrel length; putting a G-19 barrel in my G-26 gives it G-27 (.40 cal.) ballistics.
An interesting web-site that illustrate the barrel length importance: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com.

I know the manufacturers number cannot be trusted, but what surprised me is that GL's numbers for the .380 ACP are actually higher than the manufacturer's and very close to the 9mm ??? Maybe is test medium was softer ...

Yep, I need to put some DPX through the P3AT; not easy, because the local ranges do not allow "outside" ammo and they don't have DPX.
I am so used to "thinking Glock"; mine have digested any ammo I did feed them for the last 15 years, without a hiccup, that I forget some pistol can be temperamental.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
burley said:
Any handgun , any, is inadequate for a gun fight. You should feel under-gunned with any pistol. A handgun is the 'fire extinguisher' of personal safety (ask a fireman what they use em for , but believe me ,everyone of 'em has 1/some at home  ;))).
If  a pistol is  'all ' you got to save ya ,feel afraid , very afraid.(your best weapon and the one most used should be between your ears)
That said , I go out with a P 32 a lot. Today we went shopping in Kansas City, I had something extra tagging along and a backup partner who carries as well. Try using the P3 as a BUG ,pretty soon you'l find places to go that it 'fits the bill' for  ;)
I almost agree; I would say "Any handgun that can be carried easily...".
I didn't feel under-gunned with my Ruger Super-Blackhawk 8" barrel in .44 mag with silhouette loads, that used to be on my night stand.
Now I have a Mossy 500 on a shelf under the bed.

The few times my wife or I had to pull a gun, we didn't have to fire it; I wonder if the size has a psychological effect;
my wife confronted an intruder with her S&W highway patrolman 6" .357; the guy kept going towards her until she cocked the hammer; at that point he turned around and ran, fast, very fast :).
The Glock is also pretty ugly when seen from the wrong end; actually it is pretty ugly, period ;)
The P3 is small, cute, looks almost like a toy ...
And, for me, the best gunfight is the one you win without having to shoot.

So now I am back to thinking: "The PF-9 is not much bigger, it is a 9mm, I have thousands of rds for it. Then I look at the PF-9 and I think, it is not much smaller than the G-26 that I have so much experience with, so why change ?"

I guess I just need to train with the P3AT and build my confidence...

Thanks for the feedback.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
BillK said:
I also feel more comfortable when carrying my Glock 26 (P3AT is almost always still carried in my front pocket as a BUG to the Glock). But, most often I'm just carrying my P3AT and a folding knife; I'd be way more uncomfortable if I were carrying no gun at all.

How do you feel about lasers on hand guns? There are two lasers, ArmaLaser & Crimson Trace LaserGuard, that mount nicely on the P3AT.
Take care...
Absolutely, any gun (almost) is better than no gun !!!

Lasers, I gave my opinion here: http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261800942

Don't get me wrong, I am an electronic "junky"; my roadname in my motorcycle club is "Gizmo"  ;)

Having thought about it, I tend to believe that laser sights are good for those who have no or little training.
I have students that get there CCW, buy a gun, ammo, sometimes a holster and that's it.
For these people, yes, I believe that a laser is beneficial.
For those who have decent training, I believe what the more experienced trainers have told me: it will slow you down, especially under high stress condition, and thinking about it, it makes sense.

A few years ago, shooting IDPA, we did an unofficial COF with and without laser, the laser was slower.  To be fair, I have to say that we all had shot many COF over the years without laser and it was the first time we did it with a laser ...

Stay safe !
 

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jfl said:
Yep, I need to put some DPX through the P3AT; not easy, because the local ranges do not allow "outside" ammo and they don't have DPX.
That's pretty crappy. You are paying for range time, you should be able to shoot your ammo. The range I go to doesn't allow armor piercing or anything like that, understandable cause they don't want their range damaged (indoor).

Maybe offer to pay them a fee for not using their stuff, or buy their stuff, but whip out your rounds from your pocket and shoot them off. They get their $$$, you get to proof those rounds in your pistol. You aren't hosing them in any way. They don't go so far as to check the head stamps on your cases do they?
 

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I've been thinking the same way about the PF-9. Not much bigger, have more ammo for it, etc. However, I also have a PT-111. Not much bigger than the PF-9, carries more rounds, conceals well (I can even get the barrel of it into my watch pocket, not a good way to carry but it does work and the trigger is covered) , never had a problem with it in 2,500 (or so) rounds, etc. I really need to solve my "do I really need to get a PF-9".

However, the P-3AT goes with me everywhere. Way easy to conceal wearing just about anything. Usually stays in my pocket all day except for those places that are posted here in Texas.

"Size" probably does matter as a visible deterent.

Hope that you can find a range that will allow you to test your SD ammo. I've had good luck with my outdoor range up the street. (5 miles) Local indoor range, no go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
angel71rs said:
[quote author=jfl link=1262463972/0#7 date=1262532863]Yep, I need to put some DPX through the P3AT; not easy, because the local ranges do not allow "outside" ammo and they don't have DPX.
That's pretty crappy. You are paying for range time, you should be able to shoot your ammo. The range I go to doesn't allow armor piercing or anything like that, understandable cause they don't want their range damaged (indoor).

Maybe offer to pay them a fee for not using their stuff, or buy their stuff, but whip out your rounds from your pocket and shoot them off. They get their $$$, you get to proof those rounds in your pistol. You aren't hosing them in any way. They don't go so far as to check the head stamps on your cases do they?
[/quote]

You know, this is a good idea ! Didn't think of it ...
Yeah, I thought of sneaking in my ammo, but I don't like to cheat, except in a fight :)

Thanks.
 

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jfl said:
[quote author=BillK link=1262463972/0#6 date=1262524615]I also feel more comfortable when carrying my Glock 26 (P3AT is almost always still carried in my front pocket as a BUG to the Glock). But, most often I'm just carrying my P3AT and a folding knife; I'd be way more uncomfortable if I were carrying no gun at all.

How do you feel about lasers on hand guns? There are two lasers, ArmaLaser & Crimson Trace LaserGuard, that mount nicely on the P3AT.
Take care...
Absolutely, any gun (almost) is better than no gun !!!

Lasers, I gave my opinion here: http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261800942

Don't get me wrong, I am an electronic "junky"; my roadname in my motorcycle club is "Gizmo"  ;)

Having thought about it, I tend to believe that laser sights are good for those who have no or little training.
I have students that get there CCW, buy a gun, ammo, sometimes a holster and that's it.
For these people, yes, I believe that a laser is beneficial.
For those who have decent training, I believe what the more experienced trainers have told me: it will slow you down, especially under high stress condition, and thinking about it, it makes sense.

A few years ago, shooting IDPA, we did an unofficial COF with and without laser, the laser was slower.  To be fair, I have to say that we all had shot many COF over the years without laser and it was the first time we did it with a laser ...

Stay safe ![/quote]


I hear you! I didn't post to that thread but have written several other places on this forum that I'm convinced of the benefits of a laser for practice and training but am not certain about its value for carry. I've read many opinions both pro and con but have yet to setlle the matter for myself. BTW, my "training/practice" P3AT has an ArmaLaser but my carry P3AT does not sport any laser.

Take care...
 

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I looked at the ballistics on Goldenloki a few days ago, I am very skeptical ... does not come close to other figures I have seen.
Hi,

I didn't see a disconnect between Goldenloki's 380 ACP Critical Defense test velocity (874 FPS) vs. the factory velocity (1000 FPS). The Hornady website says that their figures are from a 4" Barrel vs. the 2.75" barrel of the P3AT. The shorter barrel is bound to loose some velocity.

Best Regards
 
G

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jfl said:
It is the penetration figures that I was questioning; they seem high...
According to the advertising, etc. that I have seen from the company, Critical Defense is more intended as SD ammo for the private citizen than as 'duty' ammo for police and, as such, it is supposed to be specifically designed to perform well out of shorter barrels such as would often be found on personal defense weapons that individuals might be carrying.  Supposedly, this means that they are designed to expand at the lower velocities that one would expect from shorter barrels while still giving good penetration (iirc, I believe I actually saw something in some of their advertising, etc. that opined that penetration needs for personal defense ammo are different from the minimimum 12 inch FBI requirement - and I personally believe that they are right.)

Anyhow, I said all that to say that I wonder if CD, designed to expand out of shorter barrels, might actually expand too much too quickly at 'test barrel' velocities, resulting in less penetration.  Could it be that using a longer barrel, with higher velocities, actually hurt their results?  Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
billjohnso20 said:
I don't do ranges that require their ammo or prohibit picking up your own brass---period. It's my butt on the line not theirs.
I agree; but between a 20 minutes drive and an hour and a half (one way), I compromise ;).
However, at most of the place I fly to on a regualar basis, I have a range where I can go to while I am waiting for my passengers.
It is amazing how much nicer the ranges are when you are out of Palm Beach County !!!
 

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angel71rs said:
[quote author=jfl link=1262463972/0#7 date=1262532863]Yep, I need to put some DPX through the P3AT; not easy, because the local ranges do not allow "outside" ammo and they don't have DPX.
That's pretty crappy. You are paying for range time, you should be able to shoot your ammo. The range I go to doesn't allow armor piercing or anything like that, understandable cause they don't want their range damaged (indoor).

Maybe offer to pay them a fee for not using their stuff, or buy their stuff, but whip out your rounds from your pocket and shoot them off. They get their $$$, you get to proof those rounds in your pistol. You aren't hosing them in any way. They don't go so far as to check the head stamps on your cases do they?




[/quote]
many resturants have an "opening charge" for bottle of wine that you bring in. Same thing. Talk to them, I'd bet they wouldn't mind a few mags of outside stuff. Although, any shop with that rule to begin with is questionable. sounds like shopping for a new range might be a better way to go.
 
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