[FIREGUY]

I currently carry the Federal Premium HST 9mm 124 grain ammo in all my 9mm carry handguns. Been almost impossible to find in our area for a good while now. Cost usually runs between $21 to $24 for 20 rounds depending on where you could find it in the past.
While doing a little looking on the net I found 50 round boxes of Federal HST Law Enforcement/ Tactical same grain for $24.97 a box. I contacted Federal and asked what the difference was and their response was "same round".
One just packaged in 20 the others in boxes of 50. Needless to say I just ordered 2 50 round boxes at quite a savings.

 

[TSiWRX]

That is correct - under the AKI umbrella, "premium defensive/duty ammo" are often retailed in boxes of 20 for the civilian market, while the contract market gets the same ammo, just with different packaging and quantity - at a lower price.

It's always to have one's selected/preferred defensive ammo be locally available, like yours.

However, I would definitely also advise that anyone who is not against internet "mail order" to search for its availability online, particularly at the contracted prices/quantities.

 

[FIREGUY]

One thing I forgot to mention. I emailed them yesterday with my question. I know it wasn't a rocket science thing to research but they answered me first thing this morning, even after submitting it the default message said give 2-4 business days for a response. Good customer service or maybe a slow day at the office? Don't know but pleased with the quick response.

 

[haertig]

I was all excited to try out that HST for my carry guns. Then I found that it is sometimes very hard to find. Which would be bad if that was the carry ammo that you tested your guns with. Shooting hundreds of rounds through each pistol you want to carry it in to prove reliability can get horrendously expensive with rounds like HST. Then, after all that, you find it's not available when you need it. Then what do you do? Pick a different ammo, go through the expense of testing that, and hope the new one is available when you need it?

My solution was to go with Winchester "Train and Defend". There are two ammos, matched. The Train ammo is for reliability testing and training. It is much much cheaper than the Defend ammo, which is for defense. The two ammos are ballistically matched and use the same bullet weight and profile, same velocities, same felt recoil, etc. The Defend ammo is premium hollowpoints, the Train ammo is a lesser expensive bullet - but still same weight/profile/ballistics. So you do your prove-in and practice for a lot less money with the Training rounds. Then switch to the Defensive rounds for carry. I have found these Winchester rounds always available, in quantity, at my local Cabela's store. And they're very easy to find online too.

That's all well and good, but the rounds have to perform or all of it is for nothing. They perform beautifully! They have been absolutely perfect functionality in the three different 9mm's I've tried them in (hundreds of rounds per gun). And my son loves them too - he's put over a thousand through his S&W Shield with zero malfunctions. I can't test terminal ballistics myself, but below is a really good review on them (their terminal ballistic performance was awesome!) This same guy tested HST's (and was impressed with them too). Search YouTube for "ammo quest 9mm hst" to see his reviews for those.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsVe1fxXLE[/ame]

 

[FIREGUY]

True, I'm sure not going to get into the "what's the best defense round trap here" Haetig not saying that's what you are doing but many will chime in on this. Two things I will not go for is "what's the best caliber for handgun" and "what's the best brand round for defense".
Wow that has been discussed in past years ad nausea on this board. But thanks for the advice and I will look at this brand. Just really like this round and finally found a source that has plenty for now. 100 rounds will do me for a long time.
I usually punch paper with WWB 115 gr then finish with a few rounds of the "good stuff". Again thanks for your insight here.
Is this the stuff the "box of truth guys tested?"

 

[darkwriter77]

My preferred defensive ammo choices for most calibers for maybe the past year have been (ranked from least to most readily available):

1. Federal HST's;
2. Speer Gold Dots / Sig Sauer V-Crown (very close to being the same);
3. Winchester SXZ or Train/Defend;

The availability of HST's has gotten a lot better these days, not just because they've been pushing it out there in 20-round boxes everywhere (heck, even Wally World has them now), but also it's returning to stock on a lot of sites in the 50-round "law enforcement" boxes. Ventura Munitions, Centerfire Systems, Target Sports, etc. ... just gotta look around. I absolutely avoid all +P loadings - if I need more power, I'll step up to a bigger caliber. So, the only ones of any of the above that I ever consider are the "naturally apsirated" bullet weights, which can make it a bit more difficult to find what I want. For 9mm, I go for the "non-turbocharged" 124 grain version, and in .45 ACP, I opt for the same in 230 grain. (To my knowledge, they don't make a 10mm loading, unfortunately. )

Gold Dots and V-Crowns are pretty good, and V-Crowns are kinda like the Winchester Train/Defend line in that the Sig FMJ's are loaded to the exact same velocities as their JHP counterparts. Gold Dots can often be found online or sometimes locally in 50-round boxes, but V-Crowns are only in 20-rounders, to my knowledge. Ditto for the Winchester Defend stuff.

The Winchester SXZ loads are basically the same thing as the classic Winchester Silvertips or the current Winchester White Box JHP's, just with a black Lubalox coating (a-la Black Talons), and apparently only Bass Pro Shops carry it. In my experience, darn near every gun out there will gobble that ammo readily without a problem because it has a sorta pointy profile similar to FMJ, rather than a wide-mouthed opening like some JHP's have that get hung up on feed ramps and such in some guns. They perform well enough, I've never had one fail to go bang, it's very reasonably priced, it's usually only in standard-pressure loadings, it comes in 50-round boxes, and ... well, let's face it, black bullets look cool.

 

[FLT]

Not to mention that It makes them look bigger.

 

[TSiWRX]

I was all excited to try out that HST for my carry guns. Then I found that it is sometimes very hard to find. Which would be bad if that was the carry ammo that you tested your guns with.

Definitely - and this is the reason why you'll want to always have a few options available.

At least for the next few weeks, while availability is still reasonably good, try to test out a couple of different makes/models so that you'll have some backup choices.

Shooting hundreds of rounds through each pistol you want to carry it in to prove reliability can get horrendously expensive with rounds like HST.

Typically, if a gun is not going to like a certain make/model of ammo, it's going to show it sooner rather than later.

And realistically, what a concealed/open-carry defensive shooter should be most concerned about is whether if the gun can successfully discharge all of its resident rounds - as well as any supplemental magazine one might carry.

After that, it's more about extended reliability than anything else, and the reassurance that one can derive from being able to successfully shoot out a few mags to a few dozen mags' worth of ammo becomes increasing less valuable as "realistic" information, unless one were preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse.

Then, after all that, you find it's not available when you need it. Then what do you do? Pick a different ammo, go through the expense of testing that, and hope the new one is available when you need it?

Which is why this needs to be done well before hand.

The last craze as well as the one before it saw rapidly diminishing availability of .45 ACP, 9x19, and even .357 Magnum/.38 Special, with the .45 and the 9mm literally flying off the shelves. It didn't matter if you were looking for duty/defensive ammo or FMJ, or even frangible - there was simply none to be had, only days in.

My solution was to go with Winchester "Train and Defend".

That really only covers the expense portion of your thesis above, though. Availability can still be an issue.

 

[darkwriter77]

Not to mention that It makes them look bigger.

I thought big girls always wore black because it made them look slimmer...?

 

[FIREGUY]

Well arrived this morning. Not bad, placed the order late Monday and did the standard shipping. I didn't mention the source was AmmunitionDepot.com
For anyone interested they show plenty of availability on both the 124 & 147 grain also in +P if wanted. This should last me for a while.

 

[gordon11]

HST 124gr +P is what I carry in my PT111 G2. I buy it online in boxes of 50 as well, around the same price. I didn't opt for the +P for power. In fact, I don't think it makes much difference over the standard pressure. It's simply a matter of after shooting both standard and +P back to back, the +P groups tighter and closer to the point of aim out of my gun. I have no idea why that is, as I know zero about loading technology. It's just an observed result. I don't think you could go wrong with either. I also noticed no recoil difference between the two.

 

[haertig]

Typically, if a gun is not going to like a certain make/model of ammo, it's going to show it sooner rather than later.

Granted, a gun shows what it DOESN'T like quite rapidly. But you're not testing for what it doesn't like. That is usually obvious in the first box of cartridges.

You are testing for what it DOES like. And that takes a lot more ammo to prove.

And realistically, what a concealed/open-carry defensive shooter should be most concerned about is whether if the gun can successfully discharge all of its resident rounds - as well as any supplemental magazine one might carry.

I certainly would not find a gun that jams every 16th round acceptable just because the magazine happens to be 15 rounds. When a gun jams frequently, you don't know exactly WHEN it's going to jam, but you do know that it WILL jam.

After that, it's more about extended reliability than anything else

I would not ever consider carrying a gun/ammo combination that jammed once per 50 round box of cartridges, even though I'd never expect to be firing 50 rounds (I don't even carry that much ammo in the first place).

The last craze as well as the one before it saw rapidly diminishing availability of .45 ACP, 9x19, and even .357 Magnum/.38 Special, with the .45 and the 9mm literally flying off the shelves. It didn't matter if you were looking for duty/defensive ammo or FMJ, or even frangible - there was simply none to be had, only days in.

I try to keep enough ammo on hand, in my primary defensive calibers, to last me "the rest of my life". The rest of my life levels are a mix of high end hollowpoints, FMJ, and components to reload. The combination of all that equals rest of my life. As I shoot these calibers and notice I don't have enough ammo left for the rest of my life, I rapidly replenish it back up to those levels.

My primary defensive calibers are 9mm, .45auto and 7.62x39. I am trying to work .223/5.45nato up to rest of my life level, but I'm not there yet. I'm more of an AK guy than an AR guy anyway. Things like .38special, .40s&w, .45colt, .380auto, etc. could be used for defense as well, but I don't stock these to super high levels. Not yet anyway. .45colt is probably my favorite round of all time. I shoot tons of it. It would be quite effective for self defense. But the slow-to-load SAA revolver I shoot it in may not be a top choice for defense (however, the lever action rifle I also shoot it in would be quite fine!)

 

[TSiWRX]

Granted, a gun shows what it DOESN'T like quite rapidly. But you're not testing for what it doesn't like. That is usually obvious in the first box of cartridges.

You are testing for what it DOES like. And that takes a lot more ammo to prove.

Now this is interesting - I wonder, here, if we're not speaking of the same thing.

Can we not say that if the gun does not "not like the ammo," that it, in turn, simply does?

Because what is the context of "liking the ammo?"

You wrote in the previous response that "hundreds of rounds" of premium ammunition is an expensive undertaking - and that's where I will go for this line of questioning:

How many hundreds of rounds, in a real-world context, are we likely to run from our defensive handguns, between cleanings?

This is an honest question - I'm not being facetious or disingenuous with this. I'm one of those who believe in vetting one's choices. For my G32, for example, I ran through just under 300 rounds of Speer 125 gr. GDHP through it in one session (four reps of my defensive mags). My defensive handguns have each seen at least 500 of my chosen defensive rounds, without any cleaning or, often, even additional lubrication.

And while I seek this kind of reassurance, I also cannot but think that it is excessive - and perhaps even ridiculous.

Why?

Because how likely are we to run through that kind of ammo count in a real-world context?

And does running through this high of a count truly add any value, in the real-world context?

I certainly would not find a gun that jams every 16th round acceptable just because the magazine happens to be 15 rounds. When a gun jams frequently, you don't know exactly WHEN it's going to jam, but you do know that it WILL jam.

But if it jams every time on that 16th round, consistently and unwaveringly?

Then I would definitely trust it to run 15. Why would I not?

I know my vehicle's fuel consumption. Why would I not drive it any distance, simply because I know it will finish that fuel at X distance?

Rather, it is when the firearm - or, for that matter, the vehicle - shows that it functions erratically that I would no longer trust it.

I would not ever consider carrying a gun/ammo combination that jammed once per 50 round box of cartridges, even though I'd never expect to be firing 50 rounds (I don't even carry that much ammo in the first place).

Again, I think that there is a huge difference based on the manner in which such problems present. An inconsistent and unpredictable manifestation in stoppages would be much more concerning to me than if that same firearm were to simply start showing problems - consistently - at, say, 45, or even 35 rounds out, and were to shut down at 50., especially if I do not usually stow that much ammunition with me.

In what limited experience I have, my observations and experiences have been that just as with this ammo reliability consideration, there is a not-insignificant portion of firearms owners out there who rely upon firearms that are less than "ideally" durable/reliable for a defensive role.

Nevertheless, in the context of real-life usage, I don't necessarily think that their choices are non-viable.

This is a good conversation. Thank you for having it with me.

----

I try to keep enough ammo on hand, in my primary defensive calibers, to last me "the rest of my life". The rest of my life levels are a mix of high end hollowpoints, FMJ, and components to reload. The combination of all that equals rest of my life. As I shoot these calibers and notice I don't have enough ammo left for the rest of my life, I rapidly replenish it back up to those levels.

My primary defensive calibers are 9mm, .45auto and 7.62x39. I am trying to work .223/5.45nato up to rest of my life level, but I'm not there yet. I'm more of an AK guy than an AR guy anyway. Things like .38special, .40s&w, .45colt, .380auto, etc. could be used for defense as well, but I don't stock these to super high levels. Not yet anyway. .45colt is probably my favorite round of all time. I shoot tons of it. It would be quite effective for self defense. But the slow-to-load SAA revolver I shoot it in may not be a top choice for defense (however, the lever action rifle I also shoot it in would be quite fine!)

I think this is where all newer shooters need to head toward, especially with today's political atmosphere.

This is definitely a good model to work towards.

I think what puts a lot of newer shooters off - and it certainly did, in my own case - is simply the thought of spending "that much" money.

But the truth of the matter is that it's really not that much of an investment, especially considering the rate at which newcomers to the sport/hobby tend to accumulate firearms.

 

[haertig]

There are other factors than clean gun / dirty gun that affect reliability. And it just takes a number of rounds to shake all that out IMHO. For example, my wife gets FTF's sometimes in her XD. I have zero problems. Apparently it IS possible to limp wrist a full size .45 ... my wife can do it! It took a while to shake that out. Most of the times at the range - zero problems. But occasionally, on some range trips, FTF's crept in. We narrowed it down to the days she was tired she'd get FTF's. Hmmm. Limp wristing maybe? So I increased the charge in the reloads I was feeding her, up from lighter target loads to full power loads. All FTF's disappeared, even when she was tired. Me, I could shoot her gun all day with the lightest of light loads and never have an FTF.

While this was not defensive ammo we were testing, it illustrates how you have to do extended testing to make sure ammo/gun are right for YOU, under all conditions (tired/not tired) when you may be called upon to shoot.

Hypothetically, you could shoot 100 rounds of "lower recoil" high end defensive loads one day and have zero problems. And call it good. That ammo is reliable in your gun. But if you don't take the time to test again, with more of that same ammo, at a later date, you might never uncover that the ammo does not work reliably with your gun if you are tired, tense, or not paying attention to your technique, etc. The only way to find this out, IMHO, is to shoot LOTS of rounds of your potential carry ammo. Two handed. One handed. Weak handed. Clean gun. Dirty gun. Etc. You never know what situation you'll be in should you ever have to defend yourself.

 

[TSiWRX]

^ Agreed - "reliability/durability" requires context.

It's very different being "faultless" in the relative sterility of an indoor or even outdoor range stall, particularly if shot from static upright, versus a more dynamic session where the gun may actually wind up in the dirt, dust, sand, or mud, and may be exposed to harsher weather conditions.

And just as you noted, shooter considerations need to be taken into account as well.

Another example which complements yours would be newer shooters shooting from various positions. Oftentimes, supine, prone, and modified prone conditions can elicit problems as the newer shooter start to "shoot the position" rather than to truly shoot the gun. Physical comfort/fatigue combined with uncertainty created in the mind combine to do so in these circumstances: it's not uncommon to see some really funky ejection patterns and to start seeing stoppages on a line of beginner-level students, when shooting from these positions.