Community for Kel-Tec Shooters banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have recently purchased a 2nd generation P3at and have problems with spent casings not exracting completely and then jambing the slide to a partially retracted position.It is then necessary to remove the magazine and finess the slide to clear the case.
I had started with Magtec FMJ with perfect performance until the 50th case did not extract,20 rds. of Federal Hydroshocks worked well but then I had miserable results with UMC flatnose target rds.,every 3rd rd. failed to extract completely.
I cleaned and tried a variety of other ammos with similarly poor results.
Kel-tec sent a new extractor,the design that comes to a sharp point,with no breaks or radius,just a bevel on the backside.They authorized my polishing out the machine tool lines left in the chamber at manufacturing.I then cleaned and lubed.
I switched to Federal American Eagle FMJ and Winchester Silvertip JHP as my dealer says this is what my gun is designed to shoot.Performance was much improved but I still have a minimum of 1 extraction per 50 rd. box.
I have been led to some very good drawings with some dimensions on extractor clearances on this sight and have yet to compare these to my actual dimensions.I did secure the extractor screw as I noted this problem immediately.The extractor will tend to shave a chip of brass from the cases which
I have pulled from the locking area of the barrel more than once.Also I have found smilies on following rounds in the magazine.
Is my dealer on with his ammo advice?
Will a feed ramp modification do anything to improve extraction?
Are the brass chips normal?
Can a different recoil spring yield better extraction? And how many rds. is one good for?
What is the maximum chamber bore dimension?Maybe I can polish more from it as I always approach metal removal conservatively.I am also curious about something I read here describing a lead machined onto the upper portion of the chamber to allow the case a better angle as the barrel is tilting down.Can this help,or what can it adversely affect?
While probably no relation to any extraction problems ,I have compared the somewhat sloppy register of the muzzle to the slide fit to a .32 Kel-tec and a S&W .40 and found it to be considerably looser.What kind of clearance should I see here?
This gun now has an estimated 500 rds. thru it,and I have been paying attention to keeping a firm grip to avoid "limpwristing."
This is especially revised for Bobo,who I hope is still willing to help me.Please try to be tolerant of any minor grammatical errors.As you can see I put more effort into this postig for you.Keep in mind I squeeked by english class with D's&F's,am quite good in the math and sciences though.
Thanks to anyone who can offer their advice,
K-dog
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,638 Posts
Hi, K-Dog! Welcome to KTOG! I think you have done everything possible to repair this yourself. You may need a new slide.

Call KT service tomorrow. 1-800-515-9983. Tell them you have tried to fix this problem yourself and now it is time for THEM to fix it. Ask for a UPS CALL TAG. That way the truck will come to your house and pick up the gun (which you have packed up.) and overnight it to KT at their expense.

Packer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,028 Posts
continuation from the post in fluff and buff.

another mechanical problem seen by some is a groove in the slide wall opposite the extractor.  this "wear" groove will allow the case rim not fit tight in the extractor's spring grip.


If the rim of the spent round coming out is hitting and stopping on the mouth of the next round in the magazine, some recomend a slight opening of the upper chamber (hood mod) so that tilting barrel does not push spent round so far down.

I took another approach and added soft rubber to frame under the barrel lug to keep it hard against the inside of the slide.

adding to the randonism, could be magizine fit to fram.  I did not like the fact the slide could move back and forth in the frame at the feed.  by allowing the soft rubber i put for under the barrel to extend into the magazine well, it held the maga zine very secure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,989 Posts
Welcome K-dog,

Send it to KT.

I had the issues you describe too with about
the same round count. I worked on it my
self and it got better but, it was not flawless.

I sent it back to KT and it's been flawless since.
They replaced the slide.

Rob
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
32,240 Posts
However, with a failure of only 1 in 50 rounds, perfection from KT may be iffy. I say this because even if they change the slide, they are probably not going to test fire more than 50 rounds like you can. I MIGHT try the hood mod before sending it in. This just involves breaking the sharp edge on the bottom of the chamber hood and slightly rounding that edge (fine needle file), then polishing with 600 grit. Do not remove enough metal to affect lock up. If that doesn't get it, then send it in.
Just a thought. :-/
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,830 Posts
K-dog,

These are some possible causes of Kel-Tec P-3AT Failure To Extract (FTEx). and their fixes in order of potential cause.

1. Loose Extractor Spring Screw (2G) - Tighten it.
2. Dirty Extractor - Clean it.
3. Dirty or Rough Chamber - Clean it and/or polish it.
4. Non-compatible ammo - Try other brands.
5. Bad Extractor - Replace it.
6. Poor Slide Lube - Lube it.

From your post you seem to have covered all these items.

At this point, if I were you I would call Kel-Tec service ( 800-631-0068 ), tell them what is happening and what you have done so far, and ask them if sending your gun in to them might be the best solution.

To answer your question list:

The P-3AT was not specifically designed to shoot Federal American Eagle and Winchester Silver Tips. Your P-3AT should shoot all the ammo you have mentioned quite well.

New recoil springs won't hurt, but it is very doubtful that they are contributing to the problem. Some say to change recoil springs about evry 500 rounds. My gun has 1448 rounds through it with the original springs. I want to see just far it will go.

A feed ramp mod probably won't help with FTEx, it may help with FTFe and smileys.

The brass chips are not good. Some guns will still work OK with with brass chips, but it is a symptom of the extractor slipping off the casing. It shouldn't be happening.

I don't know about bore or chamber dimensions, but you are right in being very careful how much metal you remove. You mentioned a rough chamber on your barrel, this may be a major contributor to your problem. A mirror polish is all you want do to the chamber and I would leave the bore alone. If after you polished the chamber and you still have machining grooves, I would go for a new barrel.

A hood mod (upper chamber) will probably not help either, and you have to be very careful not to remove too much metal with this mod .

Some sloppiness between barrel and slide is normal. It doesn't seem to affect function at all, or accuracy very much if at all.

BTW, your English grammar is very good. You may have received D's and F's in class, but I'd rate you about a B+ or A. Of course I'm no English teacher so what do I know? ;D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
357 Posts
Sounds like the same problem as my P-3AT - serial number HZB??.

I sent mine into KT three weeks ago - I tried calling the Friday - at 4:01 PM eastern time - they close at 4:00 so I got their answering maching.

I will try again on Monday - and then post an update. But I think you will need to send it in.

I sent it UPS - called it a manifold - which is something that directs the flow of hot gas. It only cost me $6.65. Considering it cost me $7.00 for a range fee plus $15-$20 for ammo everytime I tried some new fix - sending it in is actually the low cost option.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
32,240 Posts
A hood mod (upper chamber) will probably not help either, and you have to be very careful not to remove too much metal with this mod
Actually, this is a possibility that has fixed many guns with only occasional FTEs. After firing, the barrel tilts downward upon unlocking and the ramp hood can contact the brass and knock it off the extractor. The brass shavings could be a symptom of this. That extra tiny bit of clearance can make the difference. If your brass is sometimes getting dinged up badly, that's another sign that this could be happening. IMO, it's worth a look. Of course sending it in is always an option, but it will probably be gone a while. :-/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,377 Posts
+1 TxCajun.

The "Flyer Hood Mod" turned out to be the only way to get a lot of FG guns to work at all.

I wouldn't discount it as "not helping either" until I had tried it on a gun that otherwise, cannot be made to work.

If I were K-Dog, and had already tried everything else, a slight rounding and polish of the sharp edge of the barrel hood would be high on my list of things to do next!

But of course, looking back at it now, that would have been done to any gun of mine, already.


rcmodel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,818 Posts
Check your slide for the groove like in the picture orginally posted. Your symptoms sound a lot like mine were. American eagle worked pretty well for me for awhile but then even they were getting more FTE's. Just to prove the point to your self try some WWB(Winchester White Box) I'm thinking that you will have lots of FTE's with those. If that is the case you'll need to send it back to KT for a slide replacement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
357 Posts
zeke is correct

The first 200 or so rounds I have NO failure to extract problems with AE FMJ ammo - then one failure to extract (using AE FMJ) every 20 or so shots -   but as soon as I switched over to WWB I had many failures.

I think of the WWB as the canary in the coal mine.

I bought a box at Wally World (think it went up in price to $23 something for a box of 100)  

I fought with the same issues you are having - I finally gave up and sent it in. The part that stinks is turn around time is now up to 8 weeks - it was two - which is a result of a large increase in problem guns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,201 Posts
z71bill said:
The part that stinks is turn around time is now up to 8 weeks - it was two - which is a result of a large increase in problem guns.
I seem to recall reading that there were staffing issues. That is just as likely a cause for the increased turn around as an increase in problems. Do you have some particular facts that your statement is based on or is it just a guess?

-Scott
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
357 Posts
"staffing issues" - could be they have so many defective guns coming in that they don't have enough staff to handle them all!

It seems there is a batch of P-3AT's with defective slides (I think this is my guns problem) - plus from what I have read the PF-9 has had some nasty start up problems - but I don't follow the FP-9 so I really don't know specifics.

I don't recall which thread - but some had claimed - talking with KT - and that the % of guns returned had grown from 2% in the past - and is now 3-5%.

Based on my manufacturing experience - something as simple as the P-3AT should have a rate more like .3-.5% (.003-.005 NOT .03-.05)

If they are allowing this high a % of guns with problems to be shipped it is no big mystery why the turn around time is stretching.

If they are having staff problems that would make it worse - new hires don't know what they are doing and are slower at doing it! I hope my gun is handled by someone who has been around a while.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,201 Posts
I agree that there could be a lot of reasons and new hires could make it worse. My only point was that there could be reasons OTHER than quality (or maybe in addition to) and that it was not necessarily fair to jump to one reason.

I was actually hoping you knew something specific as I would love to see KT at a 1 week turn around and hardly anything to do just in case I have to send one back in the future. Not that I ever want to or expect to :)

-Scott
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,028 Posts
z71bill said:
...Based on my manufacturing experience - something as simple as the P-3AT should have a rate more like .3-.5% (.003-.005 NOT .03-.05)
It has been a while since I was envolved with a major corp. , but I don't think even 0.03% (0.0003) would be six sigma expectations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
does the finish of slide opposite of extractor position effect extraction do to the width dimension or is it the surface finish that grabs the case and inhibits its motion pulling the case from extractors grip?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,028 Posts
The width... the extractor is suppose to be pushed out a very small amount when a case rim slides in. Thus the reason for the extractor spring (the leaf on a 2G)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
does this relate to the brass chips i find in the locking area of the barrel?maybe if i file down this area til smooth it will relieve both exessive bite and friction on case movement.what are the proper dimensions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,028 Posts
K-dog said:
...what are the proper dimensions?
I don't know what the KT design dimensions should be.  However on mine, it is 0.345" (B).  The SAMMI case dimension from rim to opposite grove is 0.351" , thus my extractor has 0.006" bite ""

The extractor should slide so that the gap to the breech changes.  My gap is 0.046 to 0.065" (A).  The SAMMI rim thichness is 0.045", thus with extractor tight to breach face, it should not shave rim.  with the extractor away from breech, the case tapper at the groove and the tapper on the extractor will slide extractor back tight to the breach
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top