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Discussion Starter #61
There was a slight but distinctive taper already in my chamber which is what I described as the ramp. I did not deepen that taper, just a very slight dulling or edge removal on both ends of the taper. I get what you are saying nonetheless.

I will recover some of my brass next time I shoot and see how it compares to your casings. Thanks! Bill
If you are talking about the factory ramp which on my gun was almost none existent than you can go a lot deeper for improved feeding.
 

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Discussion Starter #62 (Edited)
There was a slight but distinctive taper already in my chamber which is what I described as the ramp. I did not deepen that taper, just a very slight dulling or edge removal on both ends of the taper. I get what you are saying nonetheless.

I will recover some of my brass next time I shoot and see how it compares to your casings. Thanks! Bill
Bill, just polishing off the edges of the minimal factory ramp may improve things a bit, but its not the answer. You need to dig in and diligently remove some material from the lower chamber entrance. As always unless you have done this before go slow in measured steps. I would say, use my case pix as a guide for the maximum amount of removable.
 

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By claiming you think there are 100's or 1000's of CP33's out there that function perfectly, does not change the FACT that a very large number have feeding issues, including mine. There are just too many mentions of feed issues with CP33's for it to be just an odd occurrence. It seems to me sending it back is a waste on time and money because if they had the solutions to fix the feeding issues they would incorporate them into the production guns. I noted in your response that when you have a problem "you work it out on your own" Hmm, isn't that what I am doing here??? My gun is of very recent production and still had feed issues. I have tried every which way to load and check the mag loading but without ramping the chamber, feed problems still existed! So I will do all I can "On My Own" to make the gun function normally and because so many other owners have similar issues I will share advice on ways to make them function better. So, if I were to follow your thoughts, I would think . . . its all my fault for not figuring out the special magic needed to load a CP33 magazine. It should not be that hard to load a magazine.
I never said some people were not having issues. My point was that advising people to immediately grind away at things to solve a problem that may not even be caused by the same thing, is bad advice. And since so many people have no problems, that tells me that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

As for the mags, it is a fact that incorrect loading will make that last round harder to load and thus have a much higher probability of not feeding. I just suggest people rule out all other things before getting out the dremel.
 

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I never said some people were not having issues. My point was that advising people to immediately grind away at things to solve a problem that may not even be caused by the same thing, is bad advice. And since so many people have no problems, that tells me that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

As for the mags, it is a fact that incorrect loading will make that last round harder to load and thus have a much higher probability of not feeding. I just suggest people rule out all other things before getting out the dremel.
I have to agree 100% Shoot the pistol first before making any mods to it. My CP33 works just fine straight out of the box. I load the magazines to full capacity and let them sit for a few days before going to the range. I did the same with my CMR and PMR magazines. And with the CP33 (and CMR/PMR) properly loading the magazines is a must.
 

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Discussion Starter #66 (Edited)
I never said some people were not having issues. My point was that advising people to immediately grind away at things to solve a problem that may not even be caused by the same thing, is bad advice. And since so many people have no problems, that tells me that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

As for the mags, it is a fact that incorrect loading will make that last round harder to load and thus have a much higher probability of not feeding. I just suggest people rule out all other things before getting out the dremel.
Well Mr. Poppo, actually I agree with your comment, "My point was that advising people to immediately grind away at things to solve a problem that may not even be caused by the same thing, is bad advice." I agree with you, because that would be bad advice, But . . . I NEVER SAID THAT! You are just making things up and then attributing them to me. As a gunsmith for more than 25 years I have the ability to diagnose and repair many gun problems, especially the simple stuff like this. This type of feed issue metaphorically dates back to the age of the dinosaurs, its nothing new. In one of my recent posts I listed three symptoms that happen when a .22 hits a sharp chamber edge. If you are encountering this type of problem ramping the chamber will help. Nowhere did I say immediately grind away on gun parts to solve a problem without first diagnosing the problem. If you actually read and comprehended my posts you will note that I have said "if you are not sure how to do this see a Gunsmith first." You will also see in my posts to SB62 that I agreed he should approach this in small measured steps! From his posts I could see he was a little unsure due to his lack of experience cutting chamber ramps. Yes I know I sad it was time to dig in and remove some material because merely polishing that problematic edge accomplishes little. You need to remove some material. I even posted a fired case picture to use as a guide. And I did warn against just grinding away into the chamber. Regarding your magazine loading comment "As for the mags, it is a fact that incorrect loading will make that last round harder to load and thus have a much higher probability of not feeding." You are confusing two different issues. There are magazine loading problems and there are chamber entry problems. My comments to SB62 where related to chamber entry problems. While I somewhat agree with you here you completely ignore the obvious, you can load this mag correctly and still have feeding issues due to the sharp angle of the chamber entrance. Mr. Poppo you need to go back to reading comprehension school.
 

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Discussion Starter #67 (Edited)
This is the only thing I do. Cmmg sent me this link when their chamber was tight

Mr. Silverback, cleaning a dirty chamber has no effect on the cartridge getting hung-up on a protruding edge of the chamber entrance, unless the chamber is literally packed with carbon. A dirty chamber will usually impair extraction. So, please explain to me how Cleaning or "BUZZING" your chamber will prevent the cartridge from getting hung-up on the lower chamber entrance.
 

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Discussion Starter #68 (Edited)
I have to agree 100% Shoot the pistol first before making any mods to it. My CP33 works just fine straight out of the box. I load the magazines to full capacity and let them sit for a few days before going to the range. I did the same with my CMR and PMR magazines. And with the CP33 (and CMR/PMR) properly loading the magazines is a must.
Mr. 12 Bravo, I agree completely with your comment, "Shoot the pistol first before making any mods to it." But, who was the person that said take the pistol out of the box and start moding it before you shoot it???
 

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@Subgunner 1 ,

Buzzing the chamber also does a mild polishing of burrs and smooths the sharp edges if the chamber mouth without too much worry of removing excessive material.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
@Subgunner 1 ,

Buzzing the chamber also does a mild polishing of burrs and smooths the sharp edges if the chamber mouth without too much worry of removing excessive material.
And as I have stated before, a polished sharp edge is still a sharp edge. If you have this edge issue you can polish forever and you will still have an edge interference issue. and further the CMMG video refers to their .22 AR15 conversion kit, not the CP33 there are some big differences there.
 

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Ok ....all I can tell you is that it helped mine. I think it took two separate sessions. Yea I know it's for the 22lr adapter but a chamber is a chamber.

Anyway. Not going to do the back and forth thing just wanted to pass along some information.

Your mileage may vary.
Have a great day!
 

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Discussion Starter #72 (Edited)
Ok ....all I can tell you is that it helped mine. I think it took two separate sessions. Yea I know it's for the 22lr adapter but a chamber is a chamber.

Anyway. Not going to do the back and forth thing just wanted to pass along some information.

Your mileage may vary.
Have a great day!
Excellent, glad it worked for you. My only issue is a wire brush spinning at high speed will remove material as you believe it has. Use it only when necessary or you will run the risk of enlarging the chamber. And never, run it down the barrel while spinning. Thanks for replying.
 

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Purchased my new CP33, finished the paperwork and took it into the range area to be impressed and amazed, only to find I bought another problem child. It would not load anything I had! Not Rem. Golden Bullet, Not CCI mini mag, Not CCI Velocitor. It was another gun that did not function correctly, right out of the box. It has taken two weeks of work and more than $200 in ammo to get an idea of what was wrong and how to fix it. This is an excellent innovative gun with a weak magazine and feeding design. Yes, I know it’s a marvelous feat of engineering to get the mag to work at all, I agree, but the system is still weak and ammo sensitive. Here is how to make your CP33 load correctly 80-90% of the time without failures to feed on a wider selection of ammo.

1 – Ramp the lower portion of the outside chamber edge about a 1/16” into the chamber from 5 o’clock to 7 o’clock gradually tapering off at the 5 and 7 o’clock positions. After the ramp-cut the chamber will have a slightly oval look at the 6 o’clock position. If you look closely at a stock barrel chamber you will see Kel-Tec put a very small ramp cut into the chamber mouth to aid loading, but unfortunately not nearly enough. If you don’t feel comfortable doing this yourself take it to a qualified gunsmith.

2 – The mags are a marvel of engineering but not a robust design. Start by reducing the initial factory spring tension by pushing the follower all the way down. Hold it in place with a screw driver through the slots near the bottom. No need to load it with ammo. Probably a week of this will be enough to reduce the spring tension to its normal sustainable level. Some incorrectly call it breaking in the mag, it’s not.

3 – Reduce internal magazine friction. It’s very important with this design. Each mag should be stripped and cleaned every 300 or 400 rounds when possible. I clean and lube my mags with a WD-40 dampened rag. It removes the carbon buildup near the top of the mag and leaves behind a light film of lube.

4 – Ammo selection. Many owners believe ammo selection is done by the gun, by brand name. That makes no sense to me, how does it know? There must be some measurable criteria to determine what will work and what will not, so here we go:

SAAMI spec for .22LR is 1.000” -.050” overall length (OAL). Although the CP33 manual indicates the gun requires SAAMI spec ammo it does not say it will run correctly on all SAAMI spec ammo because it will not. If the round is on the short side say .957” the rounds will go horizontal in the magazine and will not be picked up by the bolt, thereby locking up the mag. Rounds with a truncated bullet nose are also likely to do the same and lockup the mag. I found this with CCI Velocitor .969” OAL and a truncated bullet nose. Try to use cartridge profiles that are solid round nose and as close as possible to 1” OAL. These are my four favorites that work and load consistently (100%) after the chamber-ramp job:

CCI Stinger RN - .991”

CCI Mini Mag RN - .986.5”

Winchester M-22 40 gr. RN - .978”

Remington ThunderBolt RN - .985.5”

An important note on the Remington ThunderBolt. As far as reducing friction they are number one. You can feel how easily they load into the magazine. They are completely coated with a high lubricity lacquer or polymer film. You can feel the difference when you pick them up, they feel slippery, yet not oily. Also look for ammo with Nickel plated cases if any are still available in .22LR. They can also reduce friction significantly.

5 – Loading the mag. There is plenty of good loading information in the manual and on the net. so I won’t go into it here, except for this. To get the top round to load it must be in a very specific position. The feed angle of the top cartridge should be the same angle as the magazine feed lips. The rear of the cartridge should be almost completely under the feed lip and the tip of the bullet nose should be centered between the two feed lips. To see this, fire a few rounds from a working mag then gently remove the mag, that is the configuration you want see on the top of the mag. When inserting the mag into the gun many people slam it in and then, to make matters worse, they start hitting the bottom of the magazine. Stop that! If you want to upset the top cartridge and cause a mis-feed that will do it. That nasty amateurish loading technique will also cause the stack of ammo to jump up and down causing rim lock on some cartridges. Just push the mag up until you hear and feel it click, no need to pound on it.
I have a good supply of Federal high-velocity power-flite .22 lr ammo made back in the days before bar codes on boxes. (early 70's). It does not list the weight of the bullet on the box. Any chance these would work in the cp33? I have shot them in my 10/22 and they seem to work fine. Great work on your post, thank you.
 

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Discussion Starter #74 (Edited)
I have a good supply of Federal high-velocity power-flite .22 lr ammo made back in the days before bar codes on boxes. (early 70's). It does not list the weight of the bullet on the box. Any chance these would work in the cp33? I have shot them in my 10/22 and they seem to work fine. Great work on your post, thank you.
Best way to find out if it will work in your Gun/Mag is to try it. No harm will come to either. However, be aware if it runs without problem that does not mean that current Federal production will work. A lot of thangs may have changed since the 70's Good luck and let the forum readers know how it works.
 

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Discussion Starter #75 (Edited)
The Final CP33 Mag Fix, I think . . .


I have spent considerable time trying to make these mags more reliable. Ammo selection is very important, correct loading procedure, very important, diligently cleaning of the mag, very important. All of these procedures definitely made a big difference, but some problems still persisted. Sometimes you can take all the precautions and the mag still gets bound up. In this event the problem is internal friction, as I stated in section 3 of my first post on this topic.

During the last few months, I have experimented successfully with a new idea. Before loading the mag for use, I flood it with WD 40. With the follower in the upmost position, direct a 2 or 3 second stream of WD onto the follower and into the feed lip area. Give it a few seconds to drip down into the mag body then wipe off any excess on the outside of the mag. Next, a good squirt into your rickety nest loader and you’re ready to go.

I have never loaded and shot the same CP33 mag 4 times in a row without a few episodes of binding and locking up. With the mag flooded with WD you can load and shoot about 4 full mags before retreatment may be required. The down side, you must clean the mag after each range session. But, as an added benefit the carbon in the mag is now much easier to clean. Another benefit is some of the WD will work its way into the chamber area when firing and improve feeding and probably extraction as well.


I have waited a few months before posting this idea to see if I found any deterioration in the plastic mag body from the WD. So far, its fine. I do however recommend cleaning and drying the mag after each range session. If you let the WD sit in the mag uncleaned it will eventually get gummy and that will cause problems.

Give it a try and let the forum know how it works for you.
 

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After reading most of these posts and comparing my CP33 and my PMR 30, it seems that if Kel-tec would just engineer some form of feed ramp into the CP33 all of the first round feed issues would disappear. My CP33 also has the first round issue and its because the first round isn't going smoothly into the chamber (like the ramp guides the 22wmr round into the PMR 30). After it goes into the chamber, all of the rest of the rounds feed smoothly.
 

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I get the occasional failure to feed of the first round if I use any type of uncoated lead bullets such as CCI Standard or Federal Champion. I run CCI AR Tactical in mine and have not had any issues with it. The CCI AR Tactical is basically the CCI Mini Mag but with a slight different bullet profile to help feed in semi-auto guns. I have also not had failures with the first round with any other type of copper coated bullets that I have tried.
 

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Discussion Starter #78 (Edited)
I think we are dancing around the edges on this issue, so lets take a closer look. Why do many fixed barrel .22LR firearms have feed issues, while others simply do not, with any ammo. The ones that feed reliably will have the cartridge entering the chamber close to horizontally or straight in. The problem children start with the mag in a lower position in relation to the chamber, requiring a steeper upward feed angle. This steep entry angle can cause the front edge of the case, and sometimes the bullet to get hung-up on the 6 O'clock chamber edge. In instances where the angle is very steep the bullet tip will hit up inside the chamber at the 12 O'clock position causing the cartridge to bend slightly. This is why ramping the 5 to 7 O'clock chamber edge improves feeding so much. If you think about it you will see that it also reduces the feed angle to improve feeding. And, it knocks off the edge that causes stoppages when the cartridge is entering.
 

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I think we are dancing around the edges on this issue, so lets take a closer look. Why do many fixed barrel .22LR firearms have feed issues, while others simply do not, with any ammo. The ones that feed reliably will have the cartridge entering the chamber close to horizontally or straight in. The problem children start with the mag in a lower position in relation to the chamber, requiring a steeper upward feed angle. This steep entry angle can cause the front edge of the case, and sometimes the bullet to get hung-up on the 6 O'clock chamber edge. In instances where the angle is very steep the bullet tip will hit up inside the chamber at the 12 O'clock position causing the cartridge to bend slightly. This is why ramping the 5 to 7 O'clock chamber edge improves feeding so much. If you think about it you will see that it also reduces the feed angle to improve feeding. And, it knocks off the edge that causes stoppages when the cartridge is entering.
Virtually all of these first round feed issues could be eliminated by KelTec very simply, somewhere along the assembly line, but at this point in time they are not. It is a problem that most of us, with the knowledge provided can fix easier than we can complain about it.

I'm just glad it is a simple polishing issue and not a true design flaw.
 

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I doubt if Kel-tec keeps up with these forums so we should probably send our suggestions directly to them.
 
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