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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Purchased my new CP33, finished the paperwork and took it into the range area to be impressed and amazed, only to find I bought another problem child. It would not load anything I had! Not Rem. Golden Bullet, Not CCI mini mag, Not CCI Velocitor. It was another gun that did not function correctly, right out of the box. It has taken two weeks of work and more than $200 in ammo to get an idea of what was wrong and how to fix it. This is an excellent innovative gun with a weak magazine and feeding design. Yes, I know it’s a marvelous feat of engineering to get the mag to work at all, I agree, but the system is still weak and ammo sensitive. Here is how to make your CP33 load correctly 80-90% of the time without failures to feed on a wider selection of ammo.

1 – Ramp the lower portion of the outside chamber edge about a 1/16” into the chamber from 5 o’clock to 7 o’clock gradually tapering off at the 5 and 7 o’clock positions. After the ramp-cut the chamber will have a slightly oval look at the 6 o’clock position. If you look closely at a stock barrel chamber you will see Kel-Tec put a very small ramp cut into the chamber mouth to aid loading, but unfortunately not nearly enough. If you don’t feel comfortable doing this yourself take it to a qualified gunsmith.

2 – The mags are a marvel of engineering but not a robust design. Start by reducing the initial factory spring tension by pushing the follower all the way down. Hold it in place with a screw driver through the slots near the bottom. No need to load it with ammo. Probably a week of this will be enough to reduce the spring tension to its normal sustainable level. Some incorrectly call it breaking in the mag, it’s not.

3 – Reduce internal magazine friction. It’s very important with this design. Each mag should be stripped and cleaned every 300 or 400 rounds when possible. I clean and lube my mags with a WD-40 dampened rag. It removes the carbon buildup near the top of the mag and leaves behind a light film of lube.

4 – Ammo selection. Many owners believe ammo selection is done by the gun, by brand name. That makes no sense to me, how does it know? There must be some measurable criteria to determine what will work and what will not, so here we go:

SAAMI spec for .22LR is 1.000” -.050” overall length (OAL). Although the CP33 manual indicates the gun requires SAAMI spec ammo it does not say it will run correctly on all SAAMI spec ammo because it will not. If the round is on the short side say .957” the rounds will go horizontal in the magazine and will not be picked up by the bolt, thereby locking up the mag. Rounds with a truncated bullet nose are also likely to do the same and lockup the mag. I found this with CCI Velocitor .969” OAL and a truncated bullet nose. Try to use cartridge profiles that are solid round nose and as close as possible to 1” OAL. These are my four favorites that work and load consistently (100%) after the chamber-ramp job:

CCI Stinger RN - .991”

CCI Mini Mag RN - .986.5”

Winchester M-22 40 gr. RN - .978”

Remington ThunderBolt RN - .985.5”

An important note on the Remington ThunderBolt. As far as reducing friction they are number one. You can feel how easily they load into the magazine. They are completely coated with a high lubricity lacquer or polymer film. You can feel the difference when you pick them up, they feel slippery, yet not oily. Also look for ammo with Nickel plated cases if any are still available in .22LR. They can also reduce friction significantly.

5 – Loading the mag. There is plenty of good loading information in the manual and on the net. so I won’t go into it here, except for this. To get the top round to load it must be in a very specific position. The feed angle of the top cartridge should be the same angle as the magazine feed lips. The rear of the cartridge should be almost completely under the feed lip and the tip of the bullet nose should be centered between the two feed lips. To see this, fire a few rounds from a working mag then gently remove the mag, that is the configuration you want see on the top of the mag. When inserting the mag into the gun many people slam it in and then, to make matters worse, they start hitting the bottom of the magazine. Stop that! If you want to upset the top cartridge and cause a mis-feed that will do it. That nasty amateurish loading technique will also cause the stack of ammo to jump up and down causing rim lock on some cartridges. Just push the mag up until you hear and feel it click, no need to pound on it.
 

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Welcome to theKTOG! That looks like good advice, and I'm glad you got your gun to shoot well. Mine worked well from the start. BUT, I made a point of making sure the mags were loaded absolutely correctly, before I even attempted to shoot the pistol. It took several tries, and about 45 minutes to load up six mags, and my fingers ended up quite sore. I bought one of the American Speedloaders Nest style loaders and it helps a lot. The rounds go in correctly nearly every time, it's much faster, and no more sore fingers.

The only issues I have had are with CCI polymer-coated ammo which has an occasional bullet that is just too fat to chamber. This is not the only gun I have had this happen with.

buzzsaw
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Welcome to theKTOG! That looks like good advice, and I'm glad you got your gun to shoot well. Mine worked well from the start. BUT, I made a point of making sure the mags were loaded absolutely correctly, before I even attempted to shoot the pistol. It took several tries, and about 45 minutes to load up six mags, and my fingers ended up quite sore. I bought one of the American Speedloaders Nest style loaders and it helps a lot. The rounds go in correctly nearly every time, it's much faster, and no more sore fingers.

The only issues I have had are with CCI polymer-coated ammo which has an occasional bullet that is just too fat to chamber. This is not the only gun I have had this happen with.

buzzsaw
Thanks Buzzsaw what ammo did you have success with?
 

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So far, everything I have thrown at it has worked. Nothing has been really bad. The CCI I mentioned above (921RWB) red white and blue poly-coated bullets. I think these are the same as CCI Clean. They definitely don't leave a bunch of garbage in the barrel. Except for the occasional fat bullet, maybe 1% of them, they've been fine. Federal Auto-Match. Geco Semi-Auto. All of these are 40 gr round nose. They have all functioned fine. I have two mags full of Federal 550 round value pack 36 gr plated hollow point (about 10 years old) loaded up, left over from my last range session. I ran out of daylight, so didn't try them. Aguila SuperExtra 40 gr plated round nose works well.

The Aguila Sniper SubSonic actually shoots in it. This is a 60 gr lead round nose loaded into what looks like a .22 Short case containing what must be a pretty hot charge. It has darn close to the same trajectory as 40 grain subsonic target ammo in my bolt action rifles, so it must have about the same velocity. I have to work the bolt carefully in my Savage bolt action to extract this. The Savage barrel is marked ".22 LR Only." After firing, the case is too short, and it sometimes doesn't extract right from the rifle. But, its surprisingly reliable in the CMR-30.

I haven't checked anything for accuracy in a serious way, yet. I have mainly been shooting steel plates, so if it falls, it counts.

buzzsaw
 

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Discussion Starter #5
So far, everything I have thrown at it has worked. Nothing has been really bad. The CCI I mentioned above (921RWB) red white and blue poly-coated bullets. I think these are the same as CCI Clean. They definitely don't leave a bunch of garbage in the barrel. Except for the occasional fat bullet, maybe 1% of them, they've been fine. Federal Auto-Match. Geco Semi-Auto. All of these are 40 gr round nose. They have all functioned fine. I have two mags full of Federal 550 round value pack 36 gr plated hollow point (about 10 years old) loaded up, left over from my last range session. I ran out of daylight, so didn't try them. Aguila SuperExtra 40 gr plated round nose works well.

The Aguila Sniper SubSonic actually shoots in it. This is a 60 gr lead round nose loaded into what looks like a .22 Short case containing what must be a pretty hot charge. It has darn close to the same trajectory as 40 grain subsonic target ammo in my bolt action rifles, so it must have about the same velocity. I have to work the bolt carefully in my Savage bolt action to extract this. The Savage barrel is marked ".22 LR Only." After firing, the case is too short, and it sometimes doesn't extract right from the rifle. But, its surprisingly reliable in the CMR-30.

I haven't checked anything for accuracy in a serious way, yet. I have mainly been shooting steel plates, so if it falls, it counts.

buzzsaw
 

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Discussion Starter #6
This is totally strange, why your CP33 is so different then my CP33 is a mystery. My CP33 is still ammo sensitive while yours seems to gobble up everything. As long as I shoot longer RN ammo it is now 100% I am not so sure that the ammo sensitivity issue is about bullet weight and more about OAL of the cartridge. If you have a caliper it would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between OAL and feeding issues as I have found.
 

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I was under the impression you had gotten yours running.

Remington Golden Bullet has loose bullet crimping. The bullets rotate and get crooked easily. The cartridges tend to get bent into a banana shape, causing jams. They don't feed well in a lot of guns.

Aguila Interceptor works in mine, too. 40 gr CPRN 0.966--0.972"
Aguila Sniper Subsonic LRN 0.964--0.967"
CCI Poly-Coated LRN 0.985--0.987"
Geco Semi-Auto LRN 0.967--0.968" (Leave it to the Germans to be the most consistent. It groups like match ammo out of my AR-22.)
Federal Value Pack 36 gr CPHP 0.968--0.985" (Yikes! Hollowpoints tend to have more variation in OAL. I haven't tried these yet in the CP-33, but they work well in PLR-22 and SU-22.)

Maybe I just got lucky this time. It seems like every time a friend or relative and I get the same kind of gun, theirs is always better than mine. Right out of the box theirs will shoot to point of aim with the sights exactly on mechanical zero, and go bang.every.time. Mine, on the other hand will jam a couple times per mag full, at least until it's broken in, and I will have to adjust the sights so far one way or the other, they look like they are about to fall off the slide, and then they snag on my holster like one of my PF-9s does. And yeah, it IS the gun, since theirs shoots just fine when I try it, and mine is just as crappy when they try it. Statistically, I should get the good one at least some of the time.

Neither one of my PMR-30s have been problem-free. The older one came with a bent barrel. Kel-Tec replaced it under warranty, but the new barrel consistently keyholes with CCI 40 gr .22 Magnum and the gun took a while to break in and get reliable. My second one had to have the slide replaced under warranty because the firing pin channel apparently wasn't milled right. Even though it has an even faster twist rate, 1 in 9, fast enough for 69 grain .223 :eek:, this gun also keyholes the world's most common .22 Magnum ammo, CCI 40 gr. Everybody else on this forum seems to get guns that shoot this ammo just fine. Or maybe they have lower standards than me.:rolleyes: Both PMR-30s do shoot other ammo well, so I shoot that instead.

It's not just Kel-Tecs. A friend and I both have civilian genuine Colt M-4s. His shoots under 1 moa with factory ammo, mine shoots about 3 moa, not great, but technically passing (military specifications allows up to about 7.5 moa.) We both bought Spike's Tactical .22 LR uppers for them, back when they still made them. I spent the extra $100 to get the Lothar Walther barrel upgrade, he didn't. His standard barrel shoots every bit as well as my "premium air-gauged match" barrel. Go figure.

Anyone who buys a number of guns will get some good ones, and some not so good ones. We tend to just enjoy the good ones and not give them much thought, while we agonize over the troublesome ones.

Anyway, happy new year, and hope you get your issues worked out. Kel Tec does have excellent customer support (hit or miss through email, so call them) and they will get you in business.

buzzsaw
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I was under the impression you had gotten yours running.

Remington Golden Bullet has loose bullet crimping. The bullets rotate and get crooked easily. The cartridges tend to get bent into a banana shape, causing jams. They don't feed well in a lot of guns.

Aguila Interceptor works in mine, too. 40 gr CPRN 0.966--0.972"
Aguila Sniper Subsonic LRN 0.964--0.967"
CCI Poly-Coated LRN 0.985--0.987"
Geco Semi-Auto LRN 0.967--0.968" (Leave it to the Germans to be the most consistent. It groups like match ammo out of my AR-22.)
Federal Value Pack 36 gr CPHP 0.968--0.985" (Yikes! Hollowpoints tend to have more variation in OAL. I haven't tried these yet in the CP-33, but they work well in PLR-22 and SU-22.)

Maybe I just got lucky this time. It seems like every time a friend or relative and I get the same kind of gun, theirs is always better than mine. Right out of the box theirs will shoot to point of aim with the sights exactly on mechanical zero, and go bang.every.time. Mine, on the other hand will jam a couple times per mag full, at least until it's broken in, and I will have to adjust the sights so far one way or the other, they look like they are about to fall off the slide, and then they snag on my holster like one of my PF-9s does. And yeah, it IS the gun, since theirs shoots just fine when I try it, and mine is just as crappy when they try it. Statistically, I should get the good one at least some of the time.

Neither one of my PMR-30s have been problem-free. The older one came with a bent barrel. Kel-Tec replaced it under warranty, but the new barrel consistently keyholes with CCI 40 gr .22 Magnum and the gun took a while to break in and get reliable. My second one had to have the slide replaced under warranty because the firing pin channel apparently wasn't milled right. Even though it has an even faster twist rate, 1 in 9, fast enough for 69 grain .223 :eek:, this gun also keyholes the world's most common .22 Magnum ammo, CCI 40 gr. Everybody else on this forum seems to get guns that shoot this ammo just fine. Or maybe they have lower standards than me.:rolleyes: Both PMR-30s do shoot other ammo well, so I shoot that instead.

It's not just Kel-Tecs. A friend and I both have civilian genuine Colt M-4s. His shoots under 1 moa with factory ammo, mine shoots about 3 moa, not great, but technically passing (military specifications allows up to about 7.5 moa.) We both bought Spike's Tactical .22 LR uppers for them, back when they still made them. I spent the extra $100 to get the Lothar Walther barrel upgrade, he didn't. His standard barrel shoots every bit as well as my "premium air-gauged match" barrel. Go figure.

Anyone who buys a number of guns will get some good ones, and some not so good ones. We tend to just enjoy the good ones and not give them much thought, while we agonize over the troublesome ones.

Anyway, happy new year, and hope you get your issues worked out. Kel Tec does have excellent customer support (hit or miss through email, so call them) and they will get you in business.

buzzsaw
Thanks Mr. Buzzsaw, actually I do have my CP-33 up and running 100% No first-round or feeding problems of any kind. If I am correct about the reason for the problem, having the Overall Length measurements will go a long way in future ammo selection for myself and the forum readers. I noted in your measurements that the ones that worked were generally .965” and up. And, you are correct about Remington Golden Bullet .950”– 957” are the numbers for the RGB, they are useless in the CP-33. If you can get them to feed out of the magazine, they will bend like a banana trying to get into the chamber. Adding to the problem of the loose bullets they are too short for this gun and yet they are within SAAMI specs. Ramping the chamber did eliminate the banana problem and made feeding feel much smoother. I have not found any .22LR ammo manufacturer that lists the OAL as a printed specification. So, I would recommend, before purchasing any large quantities of ammo, check the OAL.

Regarding KelTec quality issues, that is a problem of their making that they need to clean up. It is now their reputation and I knew that going in. I just thought maybe, somehow, by luck or fantasy I would get a good one, but I was wrong. I have noted the first-round feed problem is found in almost every review and video I’ve encountered. While everyone made excuses for it, no one had a clue why it was happening. KelTec, if you can’t fix the problem then give purchasers a solid idea on how to mitigate the problem.

I also agree with your contention regarding quality control and engineering, it’s not just KelTec, I can’t think of one gun I have purchased that didn’t require some kind of repair, adjustment or modification to make it function correctly, yes Glocks included. Worst of all was the CMMG Banchee AR Style 22LR rifle. The supplied magazines were utter nonfunctioning crap, it would give 2 or 3 round bursts whenever it felt like it and displayed the same loading issues as the CP-33 right out of the box. Ramping the chamber solved that issue as well. I agree that some bad guns will get out of the factory undetected but the factory should at least know how to fix them! In the case of CMMG they didn’t have a clue what to do. I wasted more than a year and hundreds of rounds of ammo getting it to function as a gun!

And that’s my rant for today,

Subgunner 1
 

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Isnt that weird my 16 inch cmg barrel build ar 22 came out perfect . Never had an issue with mags or rounds. It's the luck of the gun gods.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Isnt that weird my 16 inch cmg barrel build ar 22 came out perfect . Never had an issue with mags or rounds. It's the luck of the gun gods.
I would say there are differences between your build and the factory gun. My factory gun would break a firing pin spring every 700-1000 rnds and a firing pin every 2-3000 rnds. Constant misfeeds and mags that were impossible to fully load and the list of crap went on for more than a year. Oh, and if you look at the web page for parts and accessories they sell firing pins and FP springs, funny how that works.
 

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Yeah that's odd. I used all cmg parts except for the hand gaurd and upper reciver. I guess it's all in the luck of the draw. Cmmg usually makes good quality stuff
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The KelTec CP-33 - Final Thoughts on Ammo and Magazine Issues

I went to the range one more time this week to re-test my ideas one last time before posting them. As expected, the wrong type of ammo locked up the magazine and/or jammed trying to feed into the chamber.

The CP-33 is an interesting innovative design which is what first drew me to this gun. It has a long list of positive attributes and a few engineering issues that make it a problem child, especially for novice shooters and those not mechanically inclined.

However, once you understand its quirks and idiosyncrasies it becomes a versatile accurate shooter.

Modifications and Procedures, I Recommend

Ramp the chamber mouth at 6 o'clock. A ramped chamber on .22 pistols is not unusual, its quite common to improve feeding.

Clean and lube the gun and mags frequently.

Ammo Specs.

The following guidelines are not absolutes. Some combinations may work in some CP-33’s and not others. But these are good guidelines to reduce magazine and feed issues.

This magazine and feed design works best with ammo between .965” on the short side to 1.000” max. Longer than average rounds up to 1” are generally better.

This magazine and feed design is less likely to tolerate hollow points, truncated bullets or bullets with a hole at the tip. Select ammo with true round nose bullets, if it has a small hole in the tip it’s not a true round nose.

Using low power ammo can cause cycling problems.

Some subsonic ammo, because it’s low power can also cause cycling problems.

Of all the ammo I tested only two types stood out because they worked floorlessly in my ramped CP-33. For unsuppressed shooting the 40 gr. Remington ThunderBolt is the best. The best choice for use with a suppressor was the 40 gr. Standard Velocity Winchester M22, not the M22 Subsonic 45 gr. The standard M22 with my Sparrow .22 can was astonishingly quiet and had great operational characteristics. Both of these types will operate well suppressed or unsuppressed. Both are bulk pack ammo and are available at very reasonable prices. Are there other ammo combinations that will work floorlessly in this gun, I would have to say absolutely. But for me there is no need to look any further. I have found the magic combo.

Loading

Use only compatible ammo in this gun.

Learn to load without rim locking the cartridges.

Learn to properly align the stack and the top cartridge.

Use a loader if a good one is available.

I hope this clears up this issue

George AKA Subgunner 1
 

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Greetings, all! And thank you, Subgunner 1, for the info on cartridge length. I went out last night and bought a box of the M22 ammunition to try out this weekend. I had already figured out the feed ramp issue before I read your post, but it was nice to get confirmation that it wasn't a terrible idea to take a Dremel to the breech. My previous main match gun for Speed Steel and Rimfire Challenge was a very modified GSG 1911-22, so it was interesting to see just how great the CP33 ran straight out of the box, with an optic on it, compared to most .22 autoloaders. It's a difficult task, making an autoloader work reliably using the low power of .22LR!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Greetings, all! And thank you, Subgunner 1, for the info on cartridge length. I went out last night and bought a box of the M22 ammunition to try out this weekend. I had already figured out the feed ramp issue before I read your post, but it was nice to get confirmation that it wasn't a terrible idea to take a Dremel to the breech. My previous main match gun for Speed Steel and Rimfire Challenge was a very modified GSG 1911-22, so it was interesting to see just how great the CP33 ran straight out of the box, with an optic on it, compared to most .22 autoloaders. It's a difficult task, making an autoloader work reliably using the low power of .22LR!
Hi Lesiet, I am pleased that my work has helped. An important note on chamber ramping is not to overdue it. More is not always better. I check the amount and shape of the ramp by inspecting a fired case from the chamber and looking at the bulge in the rear just in front of the rim. This technique can also show how much ramp is used on other guns. I have never over-cut a chamber ramp but it is conceivable that cutting an excessively large ramp may cause the rear of the case to rupture. To anyone who tries chamber ramping without experience, use caution and do it in steps.
 

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American Speedloaders model Nest for CP-33 - feeding problems solved.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
American Speedloaders model Nest for CP-33 - feeding problems solved.

CP33 feeding problems solved? Really? Just use this poorly constructed
3D printed loader and all your feed problems disappear. Wow, how magical.

No more cartridges going horizontal and locking up the magazine.
No more rim lock, ever.
No more crisscrossing cartridges of the first 6 rounds.
No more problems with excessively short cartridges.
No more problems with cartridge case edges hanging-up entering the chamber because the chamber mouth is not optimally ramped.

Where can I buy one of these incredible devices . . . Oh wait . . . I already own one! But mine didn't solve all my feeding problems. I guess my loader is somehow defective. Maybe someone forgot to say the magic words over it.
 

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I love both of my speedloaders for CP and for PMR. Zero issues. Call the guy, tell him about your bad one.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I love both of my speedloaders for CP and for PMR. Zero issues. Call the guy, tell him about your bad one.
I emailed the company regarding my concerns and received no response, nothing!
 

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