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Hey. I am just a souless ginger who likes a short compact hefty 15 round shotgun.

Lets face it. Over the years guys have come and guys have gone in reguards to the function and use of the KSG. They either love it -(myself counted)- or hate it.

I started off a strong defender of the KSG from the first day many years back. Heck. Maybe? 10yrs ago? I dont even remember. A buddy of mine had just bought a brand new shotgun a gun store friend had got in, in one of the first semi loads kelTec sent out of their brand new KSGs.

I got this call one day saying "get over here and shoot this with me and bring 12ga now! We proceeded to fire every box he had -(maybe 5)- and the -(2 partial)- i brought along.

Loading and shooting this short but not short barreled bullpub was kinda like having your head on a cannon then pumping and going for another ride.

Both of us were somewhat avid 12ga users for deer hunting and just making holes in old car doors in the front yards of our country lives. At that time i had a long bird gun that was heavier then this KSG loaded. -(actual weight unknown)- but no way in hell would i want to take that 5round deal into combat unless i had no other option.

That day cemented the KSG for me. It fired all that we put into it. And yes. It had its quarks but nonthing about that sexy little piglet said dont trust me. It said. "I might make a mess on the floor from time to time for some people but i have room to grow. And eventually i'll be bacon". -(i love bacon)-

It was years later before i bought my own KSG and became the proud owner to yet another item to express my GOD given rights and neomarxistsocialcommieislamdemocrap threatened 2nd Amendment with.

At the time i bought the KSG i was going thru a lot of business turbulence and loss of a lot of money on making and designing a Amphibious vehicle for natural materials exploration. -(basically a ARGO made of alum and hydrualics.)- two prototypes in and a year and a half fighting with a partner who had no common sense, and about 60,000$ cash, i said heck with it! And sold out. I sold tools, trucks and the bangs. But; the KSG stayed. Its one i didnt want to loose. The Glocks, Rems, wins, and "the ghost gun with a 30 cal. clip" all were easily replaced. But the KSG just made sense to keep. I paid some cash and traded to get it and decided it couldn't be sold with the others. It stayed.

Anyway. Fast forward to today.

Over the years many have complained about the KSG and few have decided to really do anything about it though.

I find that time and time again the guys i shoot with regurally as well as guys at the range view the KSG as a "WoW! That things gnarly!" But they have never fired it. And i am more then happy to hand it over to them run them thru the basics and let them fire and pump a few. But unless you spend time with it. The mechanics seem a miss to most and the pure design that went into basically make a full sized 15rd 12ga pump shotgun bullpub gets easily overlooked by the fact i think of the plastic.

I've heard guys call it a paintball gun, even though the same plastics are generally used on their glock 19 and AR15's with every magpull paintball toy asscessory forsale.

I've watched fourms for those talkers who havent put a hundred rounds into it. Let alone the ones who never even fired it Over the years. Its fast for a 2dollar chump to drop their pre tax 2cents on how they feelz its a crap gun on the internet. And never even phatom the mental effort Mr. KelTec put into it on the engineering side.

I am a different type though. I am always seeking to improve something i view has value. My "Ghost guns" -(Check out this video on YouTube for that reference:
) have all kinds of partsto buy. All kinds of aftermarket to improve. But. The KSG hasnt many. Its kinda fallen into that zone the missing socks go.

Well. I want to change that. So. I'am going to make CNC machined componets for the KSG that improve the "paintball" look of the KSG. And i'll seek to have input from you folks of the interweb. I already have my ideas based upon my time spent with it. But my pretax is just that. My own two cents. I've already gotten a few others. To comment on improvemt ideas but i'd like others. My goal will be in a few months to toss on our 5axis machining centers billets of alum and replace the pistol grip, buttsock, and slide with true fit replacements for the "paintball plastic" that is on the KSG already. I am well aware of what it cost to machine parts. And i know that to some it will not be an option. But. I want to keep it a option none the less if they desire to save up their pretax two cents to buy CNC machined replacement parts. And. If you contribute in the process and provide valid ideas and reasonable documentation of it.

I'll make sure you can get a set for testing. -(i am not an giver... but you cover the $ and i'll not capitalize on it.)-

But lets make something better. From a already great idea.

I already am working with a electronics genus -(actually made small electrical nasa stuff)- on a very simple integrated round counter for the slide. -(a option i hope to make available soon)- and posted a while back.

Anywho.
 

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Aw GearBolt, you been messin' with the round counter thing for a long while.

Somethin' like a idiot light might be better, and easier. Just a light that says "down to two in the mag". Make 'em two different colors like red and green. Red on the left, green on the right... you could go undercover as boat! ;)

".....replace the pistol grip, buttsock, and slide with true fit replacements....."

My own two cents: Leave the plastic, it does its job well on the buttstock and pistol grip. Come up with REINFORCED slide halves and you got an instant winner. I'd put my two cents in for a nice top rail riser, about two, maybe 2-1/4 inches tall, smooth top.... for the guys who actually want to use the KSG like a shotgun <-- but maybe that's just me.

On the slide halves, something like co-molded rail that have some registration pins... that would be useful, much stronger than OE
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Post pictures and links.

The round counter isnt that complex. i've got a good set up for it. And like i' say. An option.

My goal is to make the slides first. With a fore grip built into it like the trinty force grip (attached).

Other configs are very possible. But i want to also just have a fairly identical direct replacement with a alum pic rail rather then having to attach to plastic or via the high tec adapter. That way you can pick what ever you want.

I was kinda thinking the round counter version has LED lights built into it to indicate left on left side and right on right side. And go from a flash of green to orange to red indicating empty tubes.

I am also working on a Loaded chamber indicator that lights up when you have a round in there. And stays lit when the gun moves. Micro LED's are easy to use. Plus now they sell them super cheap. The lights dont stay on on the round counter but for a few seconds after the pump of the slide or when it feels movement. Basically the same stuff the optics use. Which they just buy off the shelf and package. I went to college years ago for industrial robotics but the Lady i have helping on it up until she retired made mocro eletronics for aerospace. So. We'll see how that goes.

But. If we gather inputs and crowd sorce it. Then we can make things we' as Kelt Tec KSG owners and users actually could see buying. I see a bunch of spikes i can add to my KSG incase i want to go hands on with a persian army in the 300. But i dont see aftermarket parts that really fit function. Yeah. There are a bunch of extra Ammo attacments that make the 8pound KSG even heavier by carrying 3boxes of ammon on it. Which boggles me on who would buy that. But nothing that gives you a indication of what you have left in the tubes.

There are selector switches that are a mile long or cumbersum. But none yet fix the feeding issues due to not applying correct force on the non feed tube. Or swich the selector to the next tube for you automatically. Which is something i would like to do. Its like having two single stack magizines in your 15round double stack pistol but having to flip a switch from stack 1 to stack 2. True. The KSG is the worlds fastest 7 round relaod on a 7 round shotgun.... (click-pump-bang!) back in the fight. Verse these guys who carry a spare round in their mouth and try to spit it into the chamber...?

The aftermarket products just faded out. No one is making replacement butt stocks with QD sling points. Or the pistol grip with QD sling points. They're making spikes?... is this a combat shotgun or a spear?

Thats what i am wanting to do. Improve something. And i think we can do it. :)

i mean. Truth is. Plastic is plastic. But machined alum parts will be better. If we make it so.
 

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I mentioned before I'd be happy to beta test for you, and that still stands. I'd be happy to pay shipping + cost of materials (or something on top of that) or, if you want to pay shipping both ways, you may find value in examining parts used/abused for review and refinement. Either way, I'd be happy to help. (Small note: I'm moving in a month, but the KSG + tools will be in the car with me while everything else is in storage, so I'll have a very small window where I may fall idle.)

A pump with a CNC'd rail on the underside (basically, an aluminium replacement for what we have today) would be a great starting point, since that has given the most grief consistently in the past. I wouldn't integrate anything, other than a rail. Some folks like vertical grips, some like a grip that's angled like the Magpul M-Lok. Rather than force someone to use a grip they don't like for the sake of getting an upgraded pump, or having to make/stock more than one, I'd suggest just going for a straight swap-out part.

After that? The 'paintball' look is... a look. Like you said, Glocks, ARs, that's not a foreign thing to anyone, I see that as a more cosmetic change than anything. The shape and dimensions of the KSG probably make it look more paintball-like, even if the entire thing was milled from a solid block of metal. Functionally, though? Check this thread, pics and discussion in post #1:
https://www.thektog.org/threads/intro-and-ksg-issues.262421/
That bent carrier? We can blame that on hangups in the chamber, but it's a shame to see that bend. I think that might be a nice preventative part to replace with a better metal that won't have the issues seen by the author of that post.

Beyond those two? The parts being are filing/sanding and shining up to improve the last 1/4" or so of pump action? Maybe offer upgraded parts made of better metal with a smoother or refined surface angle/face that will give smoother action and hopefully long life, as well.

Personal, I think your first 2, likely 3, product offerings should be functional upgrades before going after areas that function fine as they are, my $0.02.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah i read thru that one. Thats parts i include in making better.
 

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I went to college years ago for industrial robotics.....Truth is. Plastic is plastic. But machined alum parts will be better. If we make it so.
I spent time at IBM's Robotics Division back in the early 80's! Then spent time applying hard automation to commercial ammunition reloading, having to deal with making all sorts of oddball brass, some of it bad, some all oddball sized... "work" for a commercial reload. Fun stuff there!

One of these days I've got to get off my duff and make a riser/sight-plane for my KSG. Making it wont be hard, but making it elegant will be more work.

As for plastic... if its the right plastic, formed the right way, there are lots of advantages in plastics. Nylong 6,6 is some tough stuff - aka Glock, Ruger, KelTec, Kahr, FN, etc etc... all use that for their pistols.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think a raised sight line is also needed. But agree. Elegant. Basically i've found a seeall sight to have the long term lease space on the end of mine. But its got to be raised. I havent raised it more then a qd pic raiser because it gets too bulky or clunky on the end. And with my APE frame. If i bring it back closer it doesnt sight good with my mellon. But with the seeall. Its point shoot with no parallax

I keep trying different optics. I had a halosun on it a few times. But it just needs to rise up too tall. I think i'll for myself. Try to figure out a 1/3 cowit with the seeall and something like a cheap brownell open glass red dot sight. Hard mount the seeall as is. As the BU sight. And qd the red dot. Cause i like to scabbard the KSG and with an optic that doesnt work for that.

I have been thinking about a cheek riser to adjust cheekweld. i see these guys talk about the shell deflectors. And such. I honestly smash my hands on equipment daily or weekly so getting nicked by a brass here or there isnt a bother to me. But if you were to make a cheek riser that had something like a deflector built into it? Even redoing the trigger one could just redesign that into it.

In truth. Its a beautiful small platform. And a 12ga to boot. So i am trying to think of ergonomics and stream line without extra bulk and undue weight.

The slide i think can easily be skeletonized. The pistol the same. Even adding the qd points and other things. The machining and cadcam these days is amazing. And getting quaility small parts is a dime a dozen anymore. The advancements are yearly. And come a long way from what i grew up on and punching your ways thru Gcode and the like. Basically if i can create it in solidworks. They can machine it. I was even thinking maybe even machining some things with extra details like the skull lowers on some of these AR builds. Maybe taking and making something for the end of the ksg. I like the gearheadworks beast. And there is another attachment for a suppressor setup which gives you a flat breecher face.

I am partial towards machine lines. When i design vehicles and equipment i try to do straigt lines and plate on plate kind of looks. Say i am cutting something for 3/4" plate. But dont need all the weight. So i drop windows. But still need it covered. So i bolt or weld a light gauge plate over the window. Stuff like that.

Onces you strip the pistol and the slide. You can basically redesign the overall looks of the layout keltec does with their squares and ergos he thought of.

And instead of buying a slide built to add a grip onto it. Just build the style of grip that is the slide. I personally prefer low pro contoured grips then the verticle tube style -(which remind me of bike pegs)-

I guess we'll see what happens. I still need to finish off converting the 3d dot cloud into useable parts to model new from using physical scans. Its not super hard. I did it once. But it takes a lot more time then typing at 40-60 words a minuet talking about it. :)
 

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Of the suggested upgrades for the KSG I think the most useful would be changes to the safety.
Either a left-hand safety for those who need it, a reservable safety, or best of all, an AR-15 type rotating safety.
With a little design effort any of the three would be possible.

Another idea would be for a magazine selector different then the ones currently available.
My problem with the standard extended selector is that it sticks out of the gun so far, there's a real risk that a bump could snap it off, rendering the gun a single magazine gun.
The screw that holds the selector is thin and a bump can break it off.

Instead of the extended selectors, a bigger but still low profile design that's wider and lays flat against the gun would be nice.
Possible a wide rocking selector that wraps around the bottom of the receiver and could be easily pressed side to side, or a selector that would slide side to side.

The idea of a selector that automatically switches to the next tube would be nice, but I'm afraid it would be overly complicated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Already a good idea on the board. :tu:

The cross bolt safety is part of the paintball crap that needs to go. It is functional yes. But intuitive and organic no. A AR safety is just a thumb that moves the way it natually does. The cross bolt takes too much coginitive thought to activate on just one side of the grip. It lends its-self to not always being put back on or taken off at the right times. And often i am pointing out at people at the range put the safety on as they when shooting it for the first time dont feel it natually. :pewpew:
 

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One thing I don't like is there's no way to put the KSG on 'safe' unless the action is cycled, possibly loading a round. No way to put it on 'safe' after firing to empty. Anything else I own can be put on safe at any time.

This oddity is by-design and stated as such in the manual. Just... weird.
 

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I consider that to be a feature. The KSG is one of the very few shotguns that has a true sear block (are there any others?). If the hammer is down then the safety can't be engaged. I prefer it that way.
Others call it the "safe chamber indicator". The RFB is the same way.
Personally, I like knowing in an instant that the gun can't fire because the hammer is down. This is probably even more important for a bulpup since you cannot simply open the bolt and glance down at the chamber (RFB).
Pick one up, thumb the safety, if it won't go on, the gun is safe, if it does go on, the gun is now safe.
 
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