Buffalo Bore Ammo

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by gvaldeg1, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    Does anyone have experience with Buffalo Bore Gold Dot ammo? Have you had any extracting or feeding problems? How many rounds of BB have you fired. Do you like it? I have read the tests in here and they look very good. I'd just like to hear some first hand experience.
     

  2. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    I appreciate you reposting the links that I said that I had read. I said: "I have read the tests in here and they look very good". In any event, I think that those are good tests to "highlight" for all P3AT owners. I'd just like to hear some first hand experience".

    In those test they only fired 4 rounds of Buffalo Bore. That doesn't tell me a lot about how they feed and extract. Clearly...they worked for 4 rounds. I have some BB 90 gr GDs but, I haven't had a chance to fire them yet. The UMC 88 gr JHPs work fine in my gun but I just got the BBs. It would be nice to hear of others experience with the BB cartridges. From the tests, they look like the "hands down" best choice for the P3AT for defense.
     
  3. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    Between the shipping requirement, cost per round, and loyalty to older brands, you won't find many users of BB - in any caliber. But,  those who do make that extra effort will be very pleased with the result IMHO. I wouldn't recommend it for people who complain about the P3AT's kick with range ammo, or for people who don't put in any range time with it. It's just for those who want to use the P3AT as a serious defensive weapon - not just a BUG or as a "feel good" carry.

    Finished velocity testing the flat nose FMJ this week. I've included a summary of the numbers below. More data was collected than appears here, but a summary is easier to read and tells the story well enough. As you can see, all 3 of BB's loads develop the same amount of energy from the P3AT. That means you can choose between a bigger, less deep hole or a smaller hole that goes deeper, since energy is proportional to the volume of the wound path.

    I would definitely not recommend the hard cast, because it breaks apart creating very little penetration in the process. But, the Gold Dot and/or FMJ are excellent choices for serious defensive carry. One great option is to stagger these 2 rounds, then use the double tap technique as a strategy (Gold Dot first). My feeling is that FMJ are good for heavy clothing, or if you want to opt for a spinal shot, but a mag full of Gold Dots offers a better probability of stopping a BG overall. My reasoning is that a head shot is much more doable than a through-the-body spine hit, and the BB dot has plenty of energy for a one shot stop of that type. Hits anywhere COM - the Gold Dot wins hands down over FMJ. So, for me, its all Gold Dots until heavy clothing season comes around. At least until I get around to doing the Gell tests ::)

    A tip on how to spend your precious range time: Debug weapon problems and try new techniques/holsters/etc with inexpensive range ammo. Once you get your kit up to speed, and have developed the reflexes to be on target after drawing from your carry holster - then do draw+aim+fire at a 7 yard target with BB. I do this about once a month. Just walk in from the street - no preparation of any kind - set up the target - draw+aim+fire exactly as I carry my weapon in daily use. 2 COM and 1 head at a range that has nothing between me and the target. I've been on target from the get-go, and have been slowly improving over time in both speed and accuracy. Practice - it's important, and it works. Some of you may be thinking "What? Spend $10 for 5 minutes of range time?" It's the quality of the time, not the quantity that puts a smile on my face. Just looking at those wonderful silouette hits after a relatively realistic shoot - oooooh yeaaaaa  :cool:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Lynnsky

    Lynnsky New Member

    562
    Oct 2, 2006
    +1 wheelgun! Been seriously looking at Buffalo Bore for the diminuitive .380. Thanks for the training tips, too! I think I can safely speak for gvaldeg1 that if anyone else has used this ammo, it'd be great to hear your overall impressions too. Many thanks!

    Regards,
    Lynnsky
     
  5. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    Add me that "inquiring minds want to know" list. Others will have different viewpoints, experience, and wisdom to share. I hope they won't mind posting!
     
  6. hotwheels

    hotwheels Guest

    A moderator might chose to move this to another forum. That's fine. This isn't meant to be smart a**...but, it's one that I've got to ask after reading all of the theories of carrying/shooting different calibers, different manufacturers ammo products, shooting through clothing, magical bullet designs, optimum bullet weight, center of mass shots and/or head shots.
    One topic that concerns me is the frequent suggestion to use FMJ rounds over JHP rounds for better "penetration" in smaller caliber weapons. Penetration is penetration and I can promise you that if you have to shoot someone with a JHP that "only" penetrates 6-7", that will get their attention because there will be damage to their body. It will hurt like a son of a bi*ch. I know that first hand from being on both sides of the gun.
    Yes, you may have to fire more than one round, but if you're justified in shooting that first round and it didn't stop the threat/attack, then you're probably justified in shooting the second (or more times) as well...if there is still a threat to yours or a third parties safety.
    That doesn't suggest that you empty the cylinder/magazine to make sure the intended target stays down.
    In fact, that could be considered homicide if the threat no longer existed.
    But, keep in mind that your best and only shot might be that first shot and subsequent shots might never hit your intended target. Human beings don't stand still when they're being shot at...they tend to move around, unlike a paper target at 5-25 yards.
    If you're worried about penetration of your chosen round, then maybe you need to consider a better round/caliber...or not carry a handgun at all. And sometimes it's wiser to be a live witness than a dead hero.
    If there is any doubt in your mind that you could take a human life, then don't carry a handgun. Don't laugh, I know of LEO's who privately admitted to that fact.
    What if you're overly successful in penetrating your intended target, but the FMJ round also strikes an innocent bystander. I don't care how justified you were in shooting the intended target, if an innocent bystander is victim of one of your shots, you will most likely face criminal charges.
    Law enforcement is held to a standard of "escalation of force necessary". That's accomplished from authority presence and voice commands up to and including lethal force.
    An "escalation of force" to a threat might be applied to a citizen "shooter" as well under certain conditions. An example, yelling at a petty bicycle thief you're calling the PD vs shooting at the thief.
    It might easier to justify "escalation of force" if a smaller caliber (.32acp, .38 or 9mm, for example) is fired more than one time, over a .357, .40, .45 (or even .50 caliber) that some citizens with a CCW seem to find necessary.
    I've seen (civil case) attorneys cross examine a "shooter" for having a .357, .45 or .40 caliber handgun when a .32 acp or .38 could have been a more "humane" choice. I've seen them argue that a "warning shot" or "shoot to wound" would have been a better choice. Sometimes the argument sways a jury, sometimes it doesn't. I've seen them cross examine a "shooter" for having a modified/lightened "hair trigger" on their handgun, or using hollow points rounds intended to "destroy and cause maximum damage to the human body". I've seen them cross examine a "shooters" lack of range time to become proficient with their weapon. I've seen them cross examine police officers for their shooting scores. My point is that any circumstance can be spun to fit the case strategy of the attorney representing a victim. It's allowed and it's not pleasant to be their intended target in the courtroom.
    Do you record every time you go to the range for practice? I do. It's simple preparation for defending my actions, just in case.
    There's an old adage about being carried by six or judged by twelve. You'd probably need to experience both before making your favorite choice, but it's pretty obvious what we'd all chose.
    Has anyone here actually ever shot another person? Has anyone here actually been shot by another person?
    I've experienced both, and it is "better to give than to receive". I can guarantee in those few seconds of decision making, tunnel vision, slow motion, fear, heart pounding, adrenaline flowing, ears ringing, eyes burning, screaming, smoke and normal reaction of a gun fight, nothing happens as you see in movies/tv.
    People criticize the outcome of many police shootings, but a citizen "shooter" will fare similar if he has to discharge his weapon. The stresses are unimaginable.
    Even if you're criminally cleared of any wrong doing by a law enforcement investigation and/or prosecutor, the civil case (maybe wrongful death) will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend yourself. It'll take years to wind through the "system". In the end, hopefully you'll be cleared by a civil jury in your use of lethal force.
    I'm not suggesting not arming yourself, if that's your choice. I'm not suggesting not being prepared for the worst case scenario. Be very prepared. Law enforcement can't be everywhere and protect everyone from the worst of society.
    I am suggesting that if you decide to arm yourself, consider the consequences of your actions if you have to resort to use of lethal force.
     
  7. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    I agree - there is a lot to consider besides the simple choices of weapon, rig, ammo, and training. Those are just the obvious must-haves to be on square 1 as a CCW licensee. The less obvious factors of legal, financial, psychological, etc issues are all there, but tend to be highly localized/individualized in nature.
     
  8. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    +1 I agree wheelguy! The ethical and legal ramifications should be square 1 for a CCW licensee. Here in Arizona, a substantial portion of the training is dedicated to 'The Law and Self-defense". That being said, although I sincerely hope that I never have to use any of my guns in my defense, however, if I do...I want that shot or those shots (however many it take to no longer feel threatened by serious bodily harm or death) to count and have maximum effectivity. I'm not going to lose critical time contemplating "if I shoot is it justified"! I know, and I'm sure that most members would agree, that I'd have to be "scared $#&*less" to impel me to draw and fire in self defense. If any form of avoidance or retreat is possible, that would be my first line of defense. Anyway...although I get hotwheels point (he sounds like an eastern attorney) I'm not going to let thoughts of criminal or civil action slow me down in defending myself. Also, I think that his bogeyman specter of hundred thousand dollar civil suits (although they can and have happened in our litigious society) is a little like warning kids about "bears under the bed". Like most people with CCWs, we are, in fact, good guys and upstanding citizens who have little to fear from criminal or civil prosecutions. As for these specious and frivolous "Wrongful Death" cases much beloved by the sleazy element among attorneys, I can't help but recall the exhortation, in Shakespeare's Henry VI, Part II, "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". With that bon mot from the bard I'll end this diatribe.
     
  9. hotwheels

    hotwheels Guest

    "he sounds like an eastern attorney"...

    Hardly accurate, I'm retired from law enforcement, having spent half of my 26 years as an AZ criminal investigator. I figured that some would think my rant as trivial.
    Since I've shot a human being and been shot myself, I probably have a perspective that few others have unless they're from a similar career or military.
    It's rather naive to think that you'll never experience the inside of a courtroom if you resort to lethal force.
    I sincerely hope you're never on the giving or receiving end of lethal force.
     
  10. gvaldeg1

    gvaldeg1 New Member

    152
    Feb 8, 2008
    Actually, very accurate from my perspective.  I said "that you SOUND like an eastern attorney" not that you were one.  I'll stick with that.  Also, I thought that I made it rather clear about the extreme unlikelihood that I'd ever have to use lethal force. However cliche...the inside of a courtroom definitely beats the inside if a "pine box".  And, I don't consider the essence of your argument as "trivial"; simply "overblown". ;)
     
  11. Curt32

    Curt32 New Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    I appreciate you reposting the links that I said that I had read.  I said:  "I have read the tests in here and they look very good".  In any event, I think that those are good tests to "highlight" for all P3AT owners.  I'd just like to hear some first hand experience".

    In those test they only fired 4 rounds of Buffalo Bore.  That doesn't tell me a lot about how they feed and extract.  Clearly...they worked for 4 rounds.  I have some BB 90 gr GDs but, I haven't had a chance to fire them yet.  The UMC 88 gr JHPs work fine in my gun but I just got the BBs.  It would be nice to hear of others experience with the BB cartridges.  From the tests, they look like the "hands down" best choice for the P3AT for defense.[/quote]

    One thing I read was that your accuracy may suffer because of the recoil so it might take some practice to get accurate shots out of the P3AT using it. This maybe something you might want to consider.

    Tom j
     
  12. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    I take the point HW was making has to do with choosing BB as carry ammo, and perhaps that using the most powerful 380 round available can be made to look bad in a courtroom. For addressing that concern, some say to choose whatever ammo the local law enforcement officers use. The local LEOs where I live tell me 2 things: 1. They are changing from 9mm to 40cal because 9 isn't powerful enough to STOP many attackers. 2. More people should get training and carry because the police aren't there when violent crimes happen - only the perp and the victim.

    Not that anyone would disagree with these ideas - just re-covering ground that has been discussed quite thoroughly in other threads. Maybe a short check-list would be helpful for those who don't browse around...
    - Continually train and practice to improve your knowledge in all aspects of CCW. There are some pretty good DVD videos out there that cover a lot of things you just can't get any other way.
    - Carry a laser and a light, save your range receipts (but not your targets), and care for your weapon and holster as if your life depends on it.
    - $1m of liability insurance is only $100/year (state farm). Useless, though, if you do something stupid.
    - If you are in a high risk situation, plunk down $5000 to have a lawyer on retainer. And, carry 2 weapons plus body armor. Better still, just move/change occupations  ;)
     
  13. DannyAves

    DannyAves New Member

    15
    Dec 31, 2007
    Hotwheels...I have also been on both ends and I agree with you...it is much better to give than to receive.
     
  14. somewhere21

    somewhere21 New Member

    15
    Mar 18, 2008
    Not an expert at all but great thread. A lot of my friends who don't carry and/or do not have much gun experience sometimes aresurprised about how much I know about gun/self defense laws. You need to know what to do and when to do it. I'm from NH if you can buy a gun you basicallycan get your carry permit. The study of gun laws and cases will only help you. Every tim I go to the range my name is on the list.
     
  15. Curt32

    Curt32 New Member

    Feb 24, 2007
    +1  I agree wheelguy!  The ethical and legal ramifications should be square 1 for a CCW licensee.  Here in Arizona, a substantial portion of the training is dedicated to 'The Law and Self-defense".  That being said, although I sincerely hope that I never have to use any of my guns in my defense, however, if I do...I want that shot or those shots (however many it take to no longer feel threatened by serious bodily harm or death) to count and have maximum effectivity.  I'm not going to lose critical time contemplating "if I shoot is it justified"!  I know, and I'm sure that most members would agree, that I'd have to be "scared $#&*less" to impel me to draw and fire in self defense.  If any form of avoidance or retreat is possible, that would be my first line of defense.  Anyway...although I get hotwheels point (he sounds like an eastern attorney) I'm not going to let thoughts of criminal or civil action slow me down in defending myself.  Also, I think that his bogeyman specter of hundred thousand dollar civil suits (although they can and have happened in our litigious society) is a little like warning kids about "bears under the bed".  Like most people with CCWs, we are, in fact, good guys and upstanding citizens who have little to fear from criminal or civil prosecutions.  As for these specious and frivolous "Wrongful Death" cases much beloved by the sleazy element among attorneys, I can't help but recall the exhortation, in Shakespeare's Henry VI, Part II, "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".  With that bon mot from the bard I'll end this diatribe. [/quote]

    Say gvaldeg1 we'll definity on the same page and I agree with you 100%!! If I'm going to be compelled to have to use my weapon in self defense my first thought is going to be survival not what the cops think. If I really have to shot it will definitely be a life threatening situation, and if they go down I want them to stay there until EMS comes or the city morgue.

    Tom j
     
  16. wheelguy

    wheelguy New Member

    May 4, 2007
    Sounds like we all agree on these points - the stuff beyond simple things like ammo choices. I also appreciate Hotwheels bringing up the experience he has had, and what we can learn from it. There are just a lot of things that a CCW licensee should know. Here are some things I have learned from video training that make sense to me, and may be of interest to others...

    - Run away if you can.
    - Most CCWs who use their weapon only show it - that's enough to end most confrontations. A laser helps make your weapon visible to the perp. However, don't show it unless the situation is dire enough that you intend to use it.

    - Don't try to outdraw someone who has a gun on you. Most attacks come at a time and place of the attacker's choosing, not yours, so expect to be caught with your pants down. The experienced criminal will catch you from behind, shoot immediately if you move, and will go through your pockets himself. So, expect to loose your weapon if you pocket or iwb/owb carry.
    - Most robberies end with the robber running away, not causing harm to the victim - if the victim cooperates fully and immediately. Being a common robbery victim is a much better choice than being on the "winning" end of an unnecessary gun fight. A few, however, are at the hands of psychos who will tip you off by saying things like "Ok, now kneel down." or "Lets go into the appartment".
    - An example: A highly respected member of this forum was robbed from the front at gun point as he was getting into his car. The perp told our good guy to give him his wallet and our guy was carrying IWB at the 4 o'clock position! He could have easily faked reaching for his back pocket and pulled his weapon instead - but chose to give the perp his wallet because he made an assessment that this was a "normal" robbery and not a psycho, so the aftermath of "winning" that gun fight was worth avoiding.

    - If the situation looks dire, and the attacker's gun is within reach, and you have practiced the moves, then a slide grab is likely your best choice, followed by using his weapon instead of yours. If you are farther away, then running away at a 45 degree angle is probably your best choice, then draw your weapon and keep moving once you have gained some distance or found cover.
    - If you shoot from inside a car and you dont have time to roll down the window/windshield, put the muzzle up against the glass to reduce the amount of blast-back from the discharge. Glass will fly into your eyes, so either always wear glasses when driving, or attempt to blink at the right time.
    - If you are in a building and can't run away, then going UP a stairwell to the next platform puts you in the best defensive position because you can then shoot straight down at the lower entry to the stair. Even trained SWAT teams won't persue a guy in an upper stairwell, but will try to drive him out by tear gas or other means.

    - If you do have to use your weapon to save your life, then call 911 immediately, and say only "I was in fear for my life. Officer, I want that man arrested" (even if the BG is obviously dead). Then, shut up because the police are gathering evidence against you at that point. Don't explain what was going on, don't say anything at all - resist the temptation to explain. When the police arrive, expect to be treated like an armed and dangerous criminal - follow their instructions and don't have a weapon in your hand - or you'll be shot by the good guys. If you can remember it, you could also say "I will cooperate fully with the police, but on the advice of my attorney will not speak without my attorney being present".
    - Here's a test: The police ask you "Did you shoot this man, or is somebody else here?". You say what?

    Geez, that was longer than I thought. And, it only covered a tiny fraction of what there is to learn. You're on your own for the rest of it, so order up some training for Pete's sake  :)
     
  17. garyg

    garyg New Member

    88
    Nov 11, 2006
    I bought some hard cast Buffalo Bore for my P-32. I like it so far. Feeds great and makes a bigger hole passing through oak pallet boards than the corbon HP. Plus it fits in the mag with the rim lock kit installed so I can mix them if I wish. Just my 2 cents