Boing!!!

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by olemissmike, Dec 1, 2007.

  1. olemissmike

    olemissmike Member

    353
    Jan 29, 2007
    I went shooting today with my P3-AT. Had fired about 50 rounds when all of a sudden a malfunction occurred. Upon inspection, I noticed that the inside recoil spring was protuding about 1 inch through the recoil spring guide hole on the slide. It was also bent. The outside spring along with the recoil spring guide were fine.

    I brought the pistol home and tore it down but could not determine how this happened. I will have to order a new spring from Kel-Tec as the original is ruined. It doesn't look like the spring guide hole on the slide is too large. I can't understand how the spring could have pushed through it during firing. I have never had this happen before.

    I have fired approx. 400 rounds through this pistol since I purchased it this summer.
     
  2. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Here is an old post about how to measure the clearance around the hole.  It was intended to let you know BEFORE there was enough wear for the spring to come through, so kind of late for you

    quote author=JFB link=1179108595/0#2 date=1179109600 quote author=JFB  link=1176350787/0#5 date=1176423426Here is a repeat of old post about how to measure the clearance around the rod.
     
    cut a piece of 20# printer paper in a small triangle,  one sides 1 1/2" long and the other 3"  
     
    Wrap paper around the rod so that a point is at the end and the paper overlaps toward the middle  

    [​IMG]
     
    now start the rod from the front of the slide and carefully start the tip of paper.  I can get mine to slide paper through but it stops just before the paper overlaps.    
     
    this indicates I only have 0.004" clearance.  

    the inner spring wire diameter is 0.019"  
     
    If you can get 5 wraps of paper (0.020" clearance) or more, the inner spring can go through  
     
    I would worry if I got 3 wraps though  
     
     
    /quote
    /quote


    Here is an old posting about springs coming out and using a nylon washer as repair

    quote author=JFB link=1174757450/15#29 date=1174850703quote author=JFB  link=1172726400/0#0 date=1172726400Several months back, when the first report of recoil springs coming out of 2G P3ATs, I started looking for a washer that would fit into the slide. I found a shoulder washer made out of nylon 6/66 ...

    The guns that were experiencing the damage to the slide’s recoil guide also had the hole in the slide drilled with a tapered bottom.  To make the nylon washer fit with maximum surface contact, the base of the washer had to be filed to match the drill tip angle.

    To do the filing, I found the washer fits  a torex T20 bit, spinning slow in a drill takes a few minutes to make the taper.  from outside diameter to inside diamter[/quote]

    [​IMG]

    The image is a scale drawing of the slide's recoil guide hole.

    the red is the profile of a 1/4" drill bit making the hole in the slide.

    the blue is the nylon washer, the washer is tapered to fit the hole made by the drill tip.   The blue lines that overlap past the drill profile and into the slide show the original size of the washer


    If you just put the full size washer in the hole, it would stop going in where the taper begins and the nylon would not be supported on the back side (subject to deformation) and it would make the space for the springs less


    this washer is very small, to hold it, I used a torex T20 bit (from one of those electric screw driver kits)

    by spinning the washer with the electric screw driver, I held a file to the out side of the washer and removed material so that it would fit into the taper made by the drill tip
    /quote


    Now, if N_A_S is still in buisness, HERE is how to get some
     

  3. JusTom

    JusTom New Member

    18
    Nov 29, 2007
    I would think that kind of failure would constitute a slide change from KT. :eek:
     
  4. alamo

    alamo New Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Not "think", It "will".
     
  5. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Oh yes....the slide needs to be replaced ( but I wouldn't)

    It is just that this problem was discovered and discussed in great detail about a year back.  For history, the problem even contined with the replacement slides, some had the problem with several returns.  Thus the insert.  At that time a few considered to use it to let them keep the pistol fuctional untill they heard the factory had adressed the problem.  Then for many months the mention of this problem went away.

    This is the first, and then two, at nearly the same time.  

    It is bad that it is still occuring :( (unless you are in the washer selling buisness ;D)
     
  6. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    As said, more than just new springs are in order. KT will gladly replace your slide, they are doing them to all of the ones that were milled too thin as it becomes necessary. Can you please give us the first 3 of your serial number and when purchased? The most affected batches seem to have come from December last year through about March this year, but not all of them in that time frame had bad slides so maybe it truly was a batch issue. Do some searching on "peening" and you will find lots of info.

    -Scott
     
  7. olemissmike

    olemissmike Member

    353
    Jan 29, 2007
    J41 purchased 01/21/07

    thanks Scott and all...

    This was very depressing to me as I am a BIG Kel-Tec Fan. I will call them on Monday.

    It was a bad day with this happening and a problem with my PF-9. As much as I like the PF-9 and P3-AT,
    my P11 ALWAYS works. I am beginning to think that the design of that weapon is superior to the others. It is the only Kel-Tec pistol that I own that I have 100% confidence in at this point.
     
  8. Powerkicker

    Powerkicker New Member

    55
    May 31, 2007
    My G1 P3AT is a wonderful weapon. Totally reliable and accurate beyond expectation. That said, there is obviously a problem with the G2 guns. Keltec needs to get this fixed. It's been going on far too long... :(
     
  9. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    there is a post that was an attempt to record the serial numbers when the problem first occurred (HERE, post is archieved and locked)  I think this was the last list of serial numbers.

    J0000 --0.0-- 7/31/2006 calc. WAG
    JODXX --1.4-- 8/7/2006 CWAG
    JONXX --2.2-- 8/14/2006 CWAG
    J26XX --7.4-- 9/11/2006 CWAG
    J2AXX  --7.8--9/15/2006 CWAG* 09/06
    J3QXX  --12.6--*10/20/2006  
    J4RXX  -- 16.1--11/20/2006 CWAG
    J5DXX  --18.3--12/4/2006 CWAG
    J5KXX  --18.9--12/7/2006 CWAG
    J65XX  --20.9--*12/13/2006
    J6HXX  --22.0--12/18/2006 CWAG
    J7CXX  --25.0--*1/12/07  
    J8UXX  --30.0--*02/26/07

    *  Kel-tec verified manufacture date.  
    the 30,000 increase in S#s in the 30 weeks from 7/31/2006 to 2/26/2007 indicates production at 1000/week

    so J41XX falls in that range
     
  10. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Posts like this just spread unbased rumor.

    There were issues and different iterations of G1 guns addressing those issues just like there are with the G2 guns. And how can you say "going on far too long" when the issue was end of 06 and the very beginning of 07 and fixed? Plus there is a very easy, non gun smithing $5.00 fix. Sure we shouldn't have to fix the problems ourselves but we can so (generically - no you PK) - shut up and fix your weapon, or shoot it like it is and if a problem develops KT wll do it for you.


    -Scott
     
  11. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    AND NOTE: Not all weapons within this range had or are subject to the issue.

     
  12. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    +1 What Scott said and I'll repeat it if I implied any different....

    That is the list of the 12 pistols' s# report here that had a problem out of a production of 30,000.
     
  13. Sangueffusor

    Sangueffusor New Member

    May 13, 2007
    Indiana
    I have a J9G** and after close to 200 rounds there is a ridge around the hole that has remained the same in appearance since the first 80 or so rounds.
     
  14. DennisD

    DennisD New Member

    19
    Nov 27, 2007
    Anyone else have visions of the old comedy routines and cartoons where the trigger of a gun is pulled and out pops a flag with "POW" or "BANG" written on it. >:( :(

    I just got my P3AT, serial # JKMxx; so hopefully I won't have to worry about this.
     
  15. BillK

    BillK New Member

    898
    Jul 23, 2007
    My J2Rxx has the start of the peening problem. Got one of the nylon washers installed but don't know wether it will stop the peening or just slow it down. None-the-less once I get a second P3AT (and prove its relaibilty for carry) I'll be sending the slide in for a replacement.
     
  16. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    I have a combined 1000's of rounds on the washer on multiple peening-prone P3s. It will stop it in its tracts. I am unsure if I will ever even worry about returning them the washer works so well.

    -Scott
     
  17. Powerkicker

    Powerkicker New Member

    55
    May 31, 2007
    Posts like this just spread unbased rumor.

       Plus there is a very easy, non gun smithing $5.00 fix.  Sure we shouldn't have to fix the problems ourselves but we can so (generically - no you PK) - shut up and fix your weapon, or shoot it like it is and if a problem develops KT wll do it for you.


    -Scott[/quote]

    A new gun should not require a 5 dollar fix. Also, what happens when your recoil spring launches in a self-defense situation? That is unacceptable since Keltec won't be in the middle of the shooting to fix a broken weapon that left the factory with a known flaw no matter how good I think their Customer Service is. They should at the least recall the serial number range known to be affected instead of making customers do their quality control inspections for them.
     
  18. adamsesq

    adamsesq New Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Just like I already said, you are right, we shouldn't have to put in a $5 fix. And you don't have to - you can send it back to KT if you want. But the point is that there is an easy fix. And only a very few of the tens of thousands made in that range might have peening issues and none of them will be immediately catastrophic - any amount of examining your weapon will tell you that a problem is happening. A recall for a few in tens of thousands is ridiculous. And EVERYONE who relies on ANYTHING mechanical for self-defense ought to be doing their own quality control inspections.

    I went to the gas station the other day and they left my gas cap loose. It causes an engine fault code and can eventually cause the car to stop running. If its not fixed it could case fatalities by dieing in the middle of traffic, when I am on the way to an emergency call etc - my car is purchased to save my life and others and such an act could cause death. I can either get out and tighten it myself or I can have it towed back to the gas station to have them fix it. Maybe the gas station should try and find every customer that has been in for a fill up since that attendant has been there because maybe he left their caps loose too? Maybe they should "recall" all those customers and have them tow their cars in just to make sure the gas cap is safe?

    Again, I agree 110% that it shouldn't have happened - but it did. Patch it (we showed you how), fix it by sending it in, or continue to shoot it and do one of the first two if you ever have to. But quitchabitchenaboutit.

    -Scott
     
  19. BillK

    BillK New Member

    898
    Jul 23, 2007

    Scott,

    That's good to hear. Understandibly the Ktog fellow that sold me the washers couldn't/wouldn't make any such claim about the washer stopping the peening.
     
  20. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    That is because Engineering will not allowing Marketing to make any such claims UNTIL six sigma is completed by Product Testing.

    BTW, Scott six sigma means less than 3.4 defects in a millon operations,  when can I expect testing completed
    ;D ;D

    Once Scott total rounds exceed 300,000, there will be a press release ;)