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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The first person to greet us when we moved in to our house in Fla 20 years ago was our Germany lady neighbor. She baked us a Black Forest cake. Best cake I ever ate. I was not back into guns at the time. Her husband was an officer in the Wehrmacht an died some years before. She sold all of his guns but kept one. I was not curious at the time and didn't know what it was. She called us the other day and said she had some important news and could we come over. She is 95 now and her family is putting her in a nursing home. She had a frosty relationship with her kids for a long time and it seems no one wants to take her in but they are footing the bill for the home. Anyway, she wanted to give my wife and I some things. My wife got Hummel figures she always liked. Then she brings out this oily rag and I knew a gun was in it. It was her husbands and his fathers before him. He carried it in the war. A JP Sauer Sohn 6.35. I told I could not take it and it may be valuable. Her reply was what good is money now. She insisted I take it but I felt kinda sad also.
 

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I think it's a neat little piece of history and story makes it even more so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I think it's a neat little piece of history and story makes it even more so.
I guess she felt grateful for the help she got from my wife and I over the years. I did some handyman work for her at times faucets, window repair etc. Put her storm shutters up when a storm was coming. My wife took her to bingo and doctors appointments. Sad her own kids wouldn't take her in for the little time she might have left. They live in Wisconsin I think. In 20 years they came to Fla maybe twice. She can be tough to deal with at times. German stubborness comes thru. LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
She actually showed me how it field strips. Very unique. Press the rear sight down while turning the knob on the back. Then the bolt assy with fp comes out. It's not integrated into the slide. Then push slide forward off frame. Also that little lever at top of trigger guard, which I think is the top of trigger, is pushed up to hold slide open. It engages front of the slide. Then you can pull slide back to drop it OR squeeze trigger to drop it. Then it's ready to fire. Never seen this set up before.
 

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That's a neat gun. Congrats. I know you'll be visiting her from time to time. Tell her your friends at KTOG say hi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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The first person to greet us when we moved in to our house in Fla 20 years ago was our Germany lady neighbor. She baked us a Black Forest cake. Best cake I ever ate. I was not back into guns at the time. Her husband was an officer in the Wehrmacht an died some years before. She sold all of his guns but kept one. I was not curious at the time and didn't know what it was. She called us the other day and said she had some important news and could we come over. She is 95 now and her family is putting her in a nursing home. She had a frosty relationship with her kids for a long time and it seems no one wants to take her in but they are footing the bill for the home. Anyway, she wanted to give my wife and I some things. My wife got Hummel figures she always liked. Then she brings out this oily rag and I knew a gun was in it. It was her husbands and his fathers before him. He carried it in the war. A JP Sauer Sohn 6.35. I told I could not take it and it may be valuable. Her reply was what good is money now. She insisted I take it but I felt kinda sad also.
A link with some info:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/S-S13-30/s-s13-30.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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The 1913 is listed in the Blue Book. The condition would look to put it at something under $200, so no need to be embarrassed about an excessive gift. Thank you for taking care of your neighbor, and enjoy her gift with all its history.
 

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Very cool for sure. Knowing the history makes it much more valuable IMO. Any chance you know her husband's name and maybe even his father's? I'm a bit if a history buff so I really enjoy that sort of thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That's a neat gun. Congrats. I know you'll be visiting her from time to time. Tell her your friends at KTOG say hi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
That will be difficult. It's in Wisconsin. I guess it's easier for THEM if she is nearby.
 

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That's a pretty neat piece of history. Unlike here in the US where pistols are actually thought of as defensive weapons, back then and over there, they were more ceremonial or a badge of office. Face it, the owner wasn't going to be dropping many enemy with a .25 ACP.

If you do decide to shoot it (I wouldn't) have a gunsmith check it over for safety first. I'd also try to find replacement springs for it. But again, for me it wouldn't be fired; it'd just be a safe queen.
 

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She wanted that pistol to go to family. Family isn't always blood kin and blood kin aren't always family.

Oh, and I love Schwarzwalder Kirschtorte. The first time I ever had it one of my German professors in college, who was originally from Berlin, made it for the class.
 

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That's a pretty neat piece of history. Unlike here in the US where pistols are actually thought of as defensive weapons, back then and over there, they were more ceremonial or a badge of office. Face it, the owner wasn't going to be dropping many enemy with a .25 ACP.

If you do decide to shoot it (I wouldn't) have a gunsmith check it over for safety first. I'd also try to find replacement springs for it. But again, for me it wouldn't be fired; it'd just be a safe queen.
I'd be just the opposite. I wouldn't carry it but I'd certainly shoot it. Probably a lot.

Also, I do think that Europeans view handguns differently than Americans but not necessarily in the way you mention. For one thing, I have read in more than one place that the procedure among European police, for instance, is that you don't shoot an assailant once or twice and see what happens. Instead, if you have to shoot then you empty the magazine. That is why things like .380acp or even .32acp have traditionally been viewed with more confidence in Europe than in America although they have mostly gone to 9mm, etc. now. Further, in war, for Americans, handguns were largely for officers and rear-line personnel. They were viewed more as PDWs - defensive weapons, as you say. For Europeans, however, they were sometimes used as fighting/offensive weapons by troops (I am thinking specifically of the Russians), as well as being 'badges of office' for officers, as you mentioned. Still, those officers used them. Vasili Blokhin, known as the Butcher of Katyn, was Joseph Stalin's executioner. It is said that, over a period of 28 days, he personally executed over 7,000 Polish prisoners of war. He is said to have executed about 300 prisoners every evening over the course of those 28 days and, the account goes, he killed every, single one of them with a Walther .25acp pistol placed at the base of their skull and fired. Of course I realize that executions are not the same as battle but still it remains that his choice of firearm for the executions was a .25acp and I would say that a pistol with around 7,000 bodies on it was definitely used.
 

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Also, I do think that Europeans view handguns differently than Americans but not necessarily in the way you mention.
I've seen the assertion made many times that Euro's viewed pistols more as a badge of status than a working tool, including in glossy print pages.

That said, the assertion seems to be based on two things. First, the assertion that Euro's tended to use smaller calibers with lower ME than the U.S., along with the corollary assertion that the U.S. views handguns primarily as a working tool and not as a badge of office. And, second, that many Euro "official" offices (such as Police) often carried other things considered more a badge of office than a working tool, far into the 20th Century. A commonly cited example is the use of "ceremonial" swords worn by police.

I see the logic, but I am not convinced that the case has been made.

First, I think it's pretty clear that attitudes in the U.S. do, in fact, very often view a handgun as a badge of authority. Military officers are very often issued handguns in cases which they are very unlikely to need a firearm at all. Probably the most famous example are Patton's pistols as a General. He didn't actually need pistols as a working tool for his position and in his circumstances and, if he did need a working tool, why on God's Green Earth didn't he get a rifle?

I'm also unconvinced on the subject of other non-functional badges-of-office; in particular swords. I have seen rather solid evidence that swords were still intended to be thought of as a functional tool, even for police officers, well into the early part of the 20th Century, including after WWI. I've seen training manuals, movies, and photographs of German Police training with Sabers and Singlesticks (stand ins for Sabers), and read reports of their occasional use in the line of duty. There are some rather famous photos and accounts of British Naval seamen training with Cutlass and Singlestick during and post-WWI. While it would seem logical that most probably thought of swords at the time as something which would see rare usage, it's also clear that they did see usage from time to time and that they were, therefore, more than mere badges-of-office. And the same can be said for <ahem> "ceremonial" daggers.

Having read some period literature and accounts, I am swaying to the belief that neither the Euro's nor the U.S. general population actually believed that .25's, .32's, or .38's were low power, ineffective, ceremonial symbols best used for looking good and intimation. While there was certainly a belief among some prior to WWI that bullets in a 0.45" diameter were more effective, the people who held that belief were in the minority and had to work to make their case. Most other people were happy to consider vest pocket guns as personal protection, "ear, nose, and throat" so to speak, tools. :)

The more I consider it, the more I believe that "The Cult of 45" is a very modern thing. I'm guessing it really got its roll in the 70's but it's definitely post-WWII.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Having read some period literature and accounts, I am swaying to the belief that neither the Euro's nor the U.S. general population actually believed that .25's, .32's, or .38's were low power, ineffective, ceremonial symbols best used for looking good and intimation. While there was certainly a belief among some prior to WWI that bullets in a 0.45" diameter were more effective, the people who held that belief were in the minority and had to work to make their case. Most other people were happy to consider vest pocket guns as personal protection, "ear, nose, and throat" so to speak, tools. :)

The more I consider it, the more I believe that "The Cult of 45" is a very modern thing. I'm guessing it really got its roll in the 70's but it's definitely post-WWII.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Growing up, many of the 'old timers' I knew who lived on and around the area of Lookout Mountain in Georgia/Alabama - whom I would see when we would go there to visit relatives and many of whom were relatives - carried .25acp or .32acp pistols. I don't remember a single one of them carrying anything bigger on their person. That was possibly because those little pistols would fit easily in the bib pocket of their overalls and were considered to be 'enough' to get out of a rough spot. If more firepower was needed, well, that was why you kept a rifle and a shotgun in the rack in the rear window of your pickup truck. Those fellahs - probably of a tougher breed than many who disparage the little 'mouseguns' - never seemed to consider the .25 or the .32 to be 'just for looks'. In fact, they may have been preferred for other reasons, too. For instance, if you were out cutting timber or pulpwood with a bunch of other guys who were doing the same and a timber rattler coiled up and threatened you it might be better and even easier to dispatch it with a .25 than to cut loose with a .45. Of course those guns would be used to defend against two-legged snakes, as well. The larger handguns were around but they might be more likely to live on a bedside table, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Remember these were state of the art back then for a small concealable pistol. No keltec p3at back then. And before these 25's were the Derringer types. This one is just about the same size as the kt. IMHO unless one is recoil sensitive or can't get shots on target with these micro 380's, they are stout recoil, I can't see carrying a smaller caliber. Size being equal I will carry the more powerful of them.
 
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