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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So....I was head out for a TX hog hunt and all my bigger handguns were boxed up for the trip (had to drive through the communist state of Illinois), so I grabbed my little P32 for a pocket gun.
I realised that I only had about 1/2 of a magazine of rounds (I use the P32 to dispatch Racoons that kill my chickens, and was lower on ammunition than I thought). I light of the fact I needed some ammo, I picked up a box of Winchester 60g Silvertips for $48.99 (yep....$48.99), and i figured I would shoot a magazine full before I headed west. The first round was a "pop-with-no-kick." Smoke drizzled out from around the hammer, and I pulled the slide to the rear, released the slide, and a new round chambered. I then dropped the magazine, racked the slide to the rear, and cleared the P32. Upon observation, I found that the bullet was lodged in the barrel.

Pissed, I tried to contact Winchester, and after about one half hour in their automated system, I finally got to a live voice that gave me another number. Joy of all joys, another 15minutes of listening to a computer and pushing buttons until I started mashing the "0" key until FINALLY I got a real-live human.

Whinchester (OLIN) wanted the lot number, the "fired case, and the bullet, and the rest of the unfired ammunition mailed back to Winchester. That said, they did set up the pick-up for the box of ammunition. They said they would send me a certificate for their ammunition.

That was two weeks ago, and I can not get ahold of anyone, and I can not get a call back from Winchester. I find it unbelivable that they could market a round for "Personal-Protection," and have such poor quality control issues that they would allow a round WITH NO POWDER be boxed up.

I guess I am still pissed, and I wonder what would have happened if a less experianced shooter shot the firearm with a bullet lodged in the chamber. I saw that happen first hand during Desert Storm with an M4, and the end result was not pretty. Let alone, If I actually had to deploy the weapon in a life-critical environmet and had a pop-no-kick/ bullet with no powder...........

I will post the end results...........
 

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Man, good think you checked the barrel or your P32 would be in pieces. The few times I've seen pictures of a Kaboom caused by a squib the P32 actually failed pretty well. What I mean is it failed in a way that kept the shooter pretty safe. The barrel split and the magazine blew out but the grip area was not damaged. KT has replaced them in the past even when the ammo was at fault.

I've seen that happen to a friend with a Glock 45acp, thankfully the next round wouldn't chamber because he didn't think to check. It was one of his own reloads so he was at fault.

Glad you didn't get hurt. Silvertips would be just about my last choice for carry ammo, I would much rather have any FMJ first.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Glad you didn't get hurt. Silvertips would be just about my last choice for carry ammo, I would much rather have any FMJ first.
I could not agree more, but that was the only 32 ammunition that the gun shop had on the shelf. I did dig through the "droppings" in the 32/22lr/22-rifle/22 short/25 auto "box" in my garage, and found a few loose 32 Remington and Augila FMJ. I later stopped in a Walmart somewhere in Arkansas and bought a box of 32 Auto Remington FMJ off the shelf.
 

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With a handle like "handloader" it seems like the thing to do would be to handload some. :D

Seriously though, that sucks about the Winchester, and that price is out of sight!
 

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Glad that you are OK.

Too bad, that ammo used to be considered pretty highly. I believe they changed the way it's manufactured though and since then even Seecamp, who used to recomend only .32acp silvertips in their pistols now don't recomend it at all to be used in it.
 

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Glad you're OK and everything is undamaged. I've only had one lot of ammo ever that I called the manufacturer on so I can't claim my experience to be representative. But I never did get a wholly satisfactory resolution, though I did end up with a "just OK" resolution. Wasn't with Winchester, though.

Hope that Win. does right by you in the end. I'm not a fan of .32ACP Silvertips because of the OAL issue, but I think Win. deserves a chance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter #7
With a handle like "handloader" it seems like the thing to do would be to handload some. :D
I will not reload any round that will actually be used for a concealed carry/car gun. I will use reloads to practice, general shooting, and hunting. But while "carrying," I will only use common factory loads secondary to possible legal ramifications. If in an unfortunate event were the weapons has to be used for defense, my understanding that a Civil or Prosecuting attorney will manipulate the fact that reloads were used (i.e. Premeditation, making extra lethal rounds, making a round so it is more painful, ect.). Although I have no proof that this is true, I have read that advice many times, and it is too easy to just buy common factory ammunition to use while I am carrying..
 

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Silvertips have gotten expensive. I still use them and never had any issues.
It is still recommended by Seecamp.

I hope and expect that Olin will take care of you.

With ANY AMMO PROBLEM EVER, it is important that EVERYONE should always contact the manufacturer. It could lead to a recall. Usually, you'll just get new boxes of ammo along with some company trinkets.

I support my local gun stores and businesses as much as possible.
But, when they try to rob me, I shop online or visit the not so local shop in the next town. For that $50, you could get 3 boxes of Fiocchi/S&B/Aquila/... delivered to your doorstep.

OCD about carry ammo?
There are a couple easy ways to 'help' verify carry ammo. One is to measure the OAL with a caliper or micrometer. Another is to use a scale and weigh your ammo. The overly short/long or heavy/anorexic ammo can be saved for the range. :D

I wouldn't worry about carrying reloads if you can competently and legally make them.
You also don't have to ever admit that they're reloads. Fearing the reloads is equivalent to fearing a CCW as premeditation/extra lethal citizen/...
 

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I wouldn't worry about carrying reloads if you can competently and legally make them.
You also don't have to ever admit that they're reloads. Fearing the reloads is equivalent to fearing a CCW as premeditation/extra lethal citizen/...
And when the retrieved slug doesn't match any loading from the manufacturer of the brass, and you've been caught in a lie...

Do you really save that much money on your carry ammo to make it even worthwhile ?
 

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I will not reload any round that will actually be used for a concealed carry/car gun. I will use reloads to practice, general shooting, and hunting. But while "carrying," I will only use common factory loads secondary to possible legal ramifications. If in an unfortunate event were the weapons has to be used for defense, my understanding that a Civil or Prosecuting attorney will manipulate the fact that reloads were used (i.e. Premeditation, making extra lethal rounds, making a round so it is more painful, ect.). Although I have no proof that this is true, I have read that advice many times, and it is too easy to just buy common factory ammunition to use while I am carrying..
I understand the conventional wisdom, I'm just not sure I agree with it. I've never been able to find any documentation of the use of handloads being an issue in court. I don't carry handloads because my department requires factory ammunition (because Training and Standards requires documentation on ammunition carried and handloads don't have such documentation). However, I've discussed deadly force issues with our DA, and I have no doubt that the kind of ammunition used in a justifiable shooting will be a non-issue in my county YMMV.

I would never carry "reloads" for self-defense. However, I would more than happily carry my own handloads (using new brass) for self-defense. I know that everything I am doing at the bench is right, I have no idea what the factory machines are doing, as evidenced by your experience with the Silvertips. Its not about saving money (new brass handloads with premium bullets save little, if any, money), but about knowing the quality of the product.

I'd never tell anyone they are "wrong" for choosing to carry factory ammunition, I'm just of the opinion that the whole "handloads are a no-no for self-defense" is at the very least seriously overblown. My opinion is worth what you paid for it. :D

And when the retrieved slug doesn't match any loading from the manufacturer of the brass, and you've been caught in a lie...

Do you really save that much money on your carry ammo to make it even worthwhile ?
It is always a bad idea to lie to law enforcement, and in many cases it is also illegal. It is, however, perfectly legal to no say anything about a particular issue. I've been in on a fair number of shooting investigations in my 15+ years of police work, and I would be willing to bet that in the huge majority of investigations across the country what kind of ammunition is used doesn't even come up. Most cops don't really know that much about guns, let alone ammunition. There is a pretty high likelihood that if a couple of pieces of Winchester brass were recovered at the scene and a couple of Gold Dot bullets were recovered from the "victim" at the hospital or morgue it wouldn't even be noticed as being unusual. The police who would notice are probably going to be the gun nuts, and they won't care that someone was using handloads. Obviously there could be an exception here or there, but given that most of the country is policed by smaller departments that do not have their own crimes labs, I'd expect it to be the exception rather than the rule if the discrepancy were noticed. Again, YMMV.
 

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I picked up a box of Winchester 60g Silvertips for $48.99 (yep....$48.99)
:eek::(

Landric, the prosecution may or may not try to make a point out of the fact that a person used handloads in defense. Whether it's a common tactic or not I don't know. My philosophy is why give them the opportunity in the first place? Using factory ammo just takes one more variable out of the equation.;)
 

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:eek::(

Landric, the prosecution may or may not try to make a point out of the fact that a person used handloads in defense. Whether it's a common tactic or not I don't know. My philosophy is why give them the opportunity in the first place? Using factory ammo just takes one more variable out of the equation.;)
Exactly. Why create the possibility of a problem. Is it worth that much ?

And yes, there's a difference between volunteering and denying, but the OP used the word "admit", which to me implies the scenario where the question came up and you are asked.

I just don't see the plus side of the handloads, versus the risks.
 

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donut: I went to the seecamp site to verify what you said about seecamp now recomending the silvertip again. You are right. In fact the page they wrote about it on turned out to be a very informative one discussing small caliber pistol rounds etc.

Thought people here might enjoy it:

http://seecamp.com/ammunition.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
BTT......I Have called multiple times now to find out about the status, but I can not get passed the answering machine at OLIN. They have yet to call back. I am starting to wonder if they will replace my ammunition that they requested I send back, or if they just blew me off (now up to a month of customer no service)!

UPDATE: Dave from OLIN called shortly after I posted this and said "Testing of the returned ammo takes 4-6 weeks, then they will send out coupons to replace the ammunition."

I will post the results........
 

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it is a good thing that you knew enough to check , some folks would not
 

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Exactly. Why create the possibility of a problem. Is it worth that much ?

I just don't see the plus side of the handloads, versus the risks.

The "plus side" for me is that I know how my handloaded self defense rounds are carefully assembled one at a time, plus how much and what kind of fresh, reliable components they contain. I use only fresh, best quality components for loading those rounds and I load them individually with the utmost carefulness. I don't keep them lying around for years, I fire them for practice/recreation on my backyard "range" every so often and then replace them with new, fresh ones.

IMHO, factory ammo that is assembled on an automated mass production line that cranks out many thousands of rounds an hour is more likely to be missing a propellant charge than are the relatively few rounds that I carefully assemble for possible anti-personel purposes using individually weighed and double checked propellant charges and fresh primers. Personally, I would much rather survive a gunfight and lose in a court of law than to die or be seriously wounded in the gunfight because of a defective factory cartridge that blew up my gun when I needed it most.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
UPDATE>>>>>>>>>>>
Winchester sent me two coupons with a value of $70.00 fo any Winchester products.
I just bought primers, and 00 Buckshot.
I guess that was fair (except for the many month wait for them to "test" my ammunition.
 

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UPDATE>>>>>>>>>>>
Winchester sent me two coupons with a value of $70.00 fo any Winchester products.
I just bought primers, and 00 Buckshot.
I guess that was fair (except for the many month wait for them to "test" my ammunition.
At least you got something out of it you can use.
I'll bet the 'testing' consisted of them tossing it into the recycle bin, that's about it.
 
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