[Percevel]

So I have been a little disappointed with the accuracy of my SU16.

So I am thought I might share my meager experience and see if others might be able to add.

Here is how my SU16-c rifle is set up.
Red Lion metal free float metal hand guard.
Red Lion trigger and reduced trigger spring.
4x scope
Shooting from a bench using a Caldwell rock and sand bags.
A2 bird cage flash hider.

55 grain ball ammo at around 3200 ft/s accuracy is about 1" at 50 yards.
69gr HPBT at about 3000 ft/s accuracy is about 1" at 50 yards.

I think I am going to mount a 10x scope and see if I can see if a higher power scope helps. I think I might also try to loosen the flash hider some. I have it on pretty tight at the moment to get the timing correct.

I think I might try to get a Alpha Stock and see if that helps get a better cheek weld.

I understand that this rifle is not designed to be a bench rest shooting rifle. I am just curious about what it can do.

 

[orichard]

Interesting post. Good to know given all your setup. I guess I've always thought the gun to be a 2 MOA gun.

 

[haugrdr]

Seems like great accuracy to me. I'm very happy with minute of paper plate at 100 yards.

 

[Junkie]

How many rounds in these groups?

 

[Percevel]

How many rounds in these groups?

5

next time I am out I will take pictures.

Please understand some groups are larger. Maybe a flyer. But it seems like when I am not a screw up it makes about 1" groups at 50.

Maybe I will post pictures of my groupings on a AR15 as comparison.

 

[WRBuchanan]

Percevel: These guns are not Bench Rest Rifles. A 1" group at 50 yards is pretty good for a rifle that is intended to be a Back Pack Gun or something you can defend yourself with.

People complain all the time about Mini14's accuracy. A good shooting Mini will do 1.5" at 100 yards. That's 3" at 200 and 4.5 at 300 which is the effective range for the .223 cartridge. Even one that only shoots 3" like mine does with Wolf Ammo is still effective to 300 yards as the kill zone is best described as a 9" Pie Plate.

I can hit an 8x10" steel plate every single time off a rest at 200 yards and about 8/10 at 300 with my Mini or my SU16CA.

So I ask, what exactly are you looking for from a plastic Sport Utility 16... Seems like they are pretty effective as is?

They aren't AR's and never claimed to be, but they aren't that far off either.

Randy

 

[Percevel]

Of course they are not bench rest rifles.

I understand that.

I am just curious about what can be done. When I go shooting what brings me the most joy is tight groups and not being around a bunch of other people.

I think 1moa is great. Shooting rifles for accuracy is something I am reasonable good at. I thought as I work on this I would share my findings with others.

 

[WRBuchanan]

I think that's a good plan.

Looking forward to seeing some results, and ditto on the people part.

Randy

 

[EarlHammer]

Hey all,
I am still feeling out this new rifle (SU16c) and shot it about 20 times with some old SS109 rounds. This 1:7 twist rate is new to me as my AR15 has a 1:9. I have a bunch of the Winchester 45 grain JHP's that are rated at 3600 fps. I also have some American Eagle 50 grain JHP's as well. My question is, will my new SU16c shoot these with precision or should I get some heavier stuff?
Thanks,
EH

 

[Percevel]

1:7 should stabilize 55-77 grain. 3600 is pretty fast I am not sure it will stabilize a 45.

The internet says that (http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/ar-15-barrel-twist-explained/)

"Bullet Weight: The Ideal Rate of Twist

So to simplify this for you, here is a chart you may want to print:

Bullet Weight Twist
40-Grain 1:12
55-Grain 1:9
62-Grain 1:8 or 1:7
77-Grain 1:7 or 1:8
80-Grain 1:7
As you can see from the chart, the heavier the bullet you want to shoot, the faster the rate of twist should be to most effectively stabilize the bullet. It’s not that you can’t shoot AR ammo that is on one end of the spectrum through a barrel with a twist rate at the other end of the spectrum, it’s just not ideal. You won’t get maximum effectiveness of your ammunition. One thing that can happen is over-stabilization; this occurs when you shoot a bullet through a barrel with too fast of a rate of twist for that particular bullet weight.

Here’s an example: you shoot a 40-grain AR bullet through a barrel with a 1:7 rate of twist; the bullet will over-stabilize and this will make the bullet not fly completely true at longer ranges. But you wouldn’t want to shoot a light AR bullet at long ranges anyway.

So what’s the best all-around rate of twist?

The M16A2 comes with a 1:7, and the military typically shoots bullet weights from 52 grains up to 77 grains, with 62 grains being the most common in combat. Most experts would agree that the best all-around rate of twist would be something in the middle such as a 1:8 or 1:9. I personally like the 1:7 or 1:8 rate of twist because I like to shoot long range in the desert. A downside to this is that it is generally believed that the faster rate of twist means the faster you wear out your barrel. That being said, you should ask yourself what kind of shooting you envision yourself doing and pick a rate of twist accordingly.

Lastly, most manufacturers do not offer different rate of twist options within a particular AR model. Typically, each model line is going to have a given rate of twist and that’s it.

So you should know what your intention is with your prospective new AR purchase beforehand, and select a model that has a barrel with a rate of twist that is consistent with your primary goals for the rifle."

YMMV.

 

[EarlHammer]

Thanks Percevel,
I read that same article. I guess I'm just going to start buying "heavier" bullets. Although I have a bunch of PMC m855's, I want some hollow points and ballistic tipped bullets... Any suggestions that would be inexpensive in bulk?
EH

 

[Windswept]

Sub-MOA Accuracy Potential, According to Gunblast.com

Here is a GunBlast review of the SU-16C in which Jeff Quinn shows sub-MOA 100 yard groups. One of the things Jeff said helped to create this fantastic accuracy was a Micor flash suppressor that has grooves cut in it to match the 1:9 twist of the barrel. Very impressive.. Of course choice of ammunition will matter, as well as the manner of pressure applied to the forend, etc. Jeff does not mention whether he used the bipod during accuracy testing or not. http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-SU16C.htm

 

[Dr-Doodle]

Problems with sight misalignment?

Has anyone noticed a problem with factory iron sight alignment on the SU16A? I'm shooting nice, tight groups, but in order to have rounds centered left to right on the target, the rear sight has to be all the way to the left. (It's not me, I had several experienced shooters try it.) I sent it back to Kel-Tec (That was not pretty: it sat at Fed-Ex for almost a week before it could be delivered to Kel-Tec and then they failed to notify me that it was done and insisted on sending it back to an FFL, which is not required under my state's law). I got the rifle back today with a note saying it shot 1" groups at 25 yards, which I already knew. It does not look like they did anything with the sights or barrel.

Is it normal for this rifle to need to have the rear sight so far off to one side?
Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[speedmaster]

My su16A is that way. It was even worse once I put on tech sight rear sight. It got almost all the way to the left to be dead center

Does yours have the new metal front sight? If so have to tried loosening the set screw to adjust the sight a little and then tighten to see if you can fix it that way. I plan on doing it at the range sometime to straighten it out some. For now I'm fine with it being dead on with the rear sight to the left.

I do plan on one day putting on a red lion forend so I would have to remove the front sight so I plan on resetting the front sight then while I have to take off the sight to install the forend.

 

[Percevel]

SU-16C vs SU-16CA

Purpose:

I own a SU-16C. I bought a second hand SU-16A stock. I wanted to see if there was a difference in the accuracy between the two stocks.

Set Up:
My SU-16C has a Red Lion Precision metal fore stock with no rails installed. To be clear I am using the same rifle upper for each set. All I am changing is the sights and the stock.

Both stocks have Red Lion Precision metal triggers and MCARBO spring kits.

They both have pretty nice triggers. The C trigger is slightly lighter then the CA. I am not really sure why.

I was shooting from a bench using
1. Iron Sights
2. Red dot sight Bushnell TRS
3. Millet DMS 1-4x24
4. Bushnell 3200 Elite 10x40

I was shooting bulk hand loaded 223 with a 55 grain FMJ bullet. Loaded to fire at about 3000 FPS from a 16" barrel.

It is not the most accurate ammo I can make but it is pretty similar in quality to any bulk commercial ammo.

I was shooting two 5 shot groups and then averaging the group size to get the results. Distance to target was 50 yards.

Results:

1. Iron sights
CA= 1.125"
C = 1.25"

2. Red Dot
CA = 0.75"
C = 0.88"

3. Millet 4x DMS
CA = 1.25"
C = 1.25"

4. Bushnell 10x40
CA = 0.63"
C = 0.75"

Discussion
There really was not a significant difference in accuracy between the C and the CA. Both shot just about the same.

However the CA was easier to bring back on target and the cheek weld was much more comfortable and was faster to establish. The C stock was just a little bit awkward when using sand bags when shooting from a bench. The felt recoil seemed slightly less with the CA stock.

To be honest I was expecting the CA to do much better then the C stock.

Conclusion
Unless you really need the folding option of the C you might be better off with a CA.

The SU-16CA might be the perfect centerfire rifle for a beginning shooter. It is light, comfortable to shoot, eats anything and relatively accurate.

 

[Windswept]

Great post, Percevel! Thanks for doing the comparison and sharing your results. You answered the main question I had regarding accuracy and shooting comfort differences between the C and CA models. I had already been leaning in the direction of the CA and now I consider the matter settled. Your post reads like a research paper summary - well done!

By the way - when you wrote that you have a Red Lion Precision stock, you meant a Red Lion Precision forend, yes?

 

[Percevel]

Yes I was talking about the the Red Lion Precision.

I kind of agree that the CA may be the better choice. However before you act consider this.

I bought my Used A stock for 20 bucks on ebay.

You might be better off buying the C then buying a CA stock and then you can go back and forth and decide for you self which actually is better for you.

I am not sure you can find a used C stock as cheap.

Ok I just looked at both ebay and gunbroker and there are no used stock currently for sale.

I did find a complete A, B, CA stock for 150.00 from the mothership.

If I had to do it all over again I would probably do the same thing. Buy a SU-16C then buy a A,B,CA stock.

This way you get the best of both worlds.

Changing from one stock to the other is super simple and fast. You could do it in less then 2 minutes easy. Most of that time is getting things to line up when putting it back together.

 

[WRBuchanan]

I personally have no use for the C model as it folds up a little too much for me,

but the real problem is,,, it doesn't have the provision to hold the Extra Magazines.

I consider that to be a more important consideration than being able to fire the gun while folded.

Also the gun carries better with a side mounted 2 point sling, than a single point set up IMHO.

I guess it comes down to a personal preference thing.

From Perceval's tests it appears that there is very little difference in the accuracy of the two configurations. Which is a good thing.

Randy

 

[EarlHammer]

Percevel, where is a good place to buy a CA stock? I'd like to put it on my "Charlie" model. I thought the A, B, and CA all had the same stock... Anyway, I hope I can find one..
EH

 

[Percevel]

As far as I know the stocks on A,B, CA models are all the same.

I bought mine from either ebay or GB. However I do not see any there at this time.

Worst case scenario is buying one from KT directly. However they are kind of expensive.

Maybe you could find some one on a gun board who wants to convert there CA or A,B to a C. Just offer to swap stocks.