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Discussion Starter #1
I thought that some of you, specifically the Sub-2000 owners, might find this article of interest. I personally agree with the author's statements. The problem with do-all weapons is that they often end up not being that great at many things. With users of AR-15 type rifles constantly going for shorter and shorter barrels you really have to start considering how useful that gun is as the near-universal tool it was designed to be. There's a chart in How to Gunsmith the AR-15 by Patrick Sweeney that shows what kind of velocity loss you're getting out of these really stubby barrels and if I recall correctly, anything under a 12 inch or so barrel won't reliably give you fragmentation with standard military ammunition. This might not matter so much at closer ranges where you're using those things as high velocity suppressed .22 submachineguns to drive down your target with a high round count in a short duration engagement. On the other hand, those of us who really do have to account for every single round, especially ones that overpenetrate, you want each shot to do maximum damage.

As Kim du Toit used to say: The 9mm cartridge, even hardball, is a great submachinegun round but each shot becomes much more critical out of a handgun.

Submachine Guns (SMG’s): Outpaced by Today’s Modern Short-Barreled Rifles (SBR’s)/Sub-Carbines, or Still a Viable Tool for Close Quarters Battle/Close Quarters Combat (CQB/CQC)?

P.S. - I hope this is the correct forum for this kind of discussion. Also, I'm in no way suggesting that the Sub-2000 is a submachinegun but it's the closest thing a lot of us can get to an efficient pistol cartridge personal defense weapon.
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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There's a chart in How to Gunsmith the AR-15 by Patrick Sweeney that shows what kind of velocity loss you're getting out of these really stubby barrels and if I recall correctly, anything under a 12 inch or so barrel won't reliably give you fragmentation with standard military ammunition.
Hmm,

Considering the big majority of PLR-16 shooters, and AR-15 pistol users out there are not using their pistols for military purposes, I propose a simple solution...Hollowpoints.

Best Regards:;)
 

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A slightly less simple solution is the Bullpup. SBR overall length, full length rifle barrel.

My FN FS2000 (chambered in 5.56 with a 17.4 inch barrel) is actually an inch shorter than my Sub2000, IIRC. I will take comparison pics when i get home.
 

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IMO sub guns are slowly becoming a thing of the past. New models like the P90, MP7 and KRISS will slow their demise but I think it's still coming. Why use a pistol cartridge when you can get a rifle in a similar size? Either a SBR or a bullpup design can do everything a sub gun can and more. I just don't understand why we in the US seem to have a problem with a bullpup weapon. They have all the advantages of a SBR with none of the drawbacks.
 

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IMO sub guns are slowly becoming a thing of the past. New models like the P90, MP7 and KRISS will slow their demise but I think it's still coming. Why use a pistol cartridge when you can get a rifle in a similar size? Either a SBR or a bullpup design can do everything a sub gun can and more. I just don't understand why we in the US seem to have a problem with a bullpup weapon. They have all the advantages of a SBR with none of the drawbacks.
A gent over in the RFB sub-forum was saying that the bull-pup design has some pretty important disadvantages in his mind, particularly for the War Fighter. I don't recall all of the details but the gist of it was that he can't do one-hand mag swaps without losing sight-picture and the mags in bull-pup carbines get in the way of vest gear and/or chest armor.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Both a traditional rifle layout and a bullpup layout have their pros and cons and it varies with specific design. MagPul came up with a concept called the PDR - Personal Defense Rifle that's as small as a P90 but uses standard AR magazines and ammunition. Ejects forward, ambidextrous, and you can even release the magazines with the firing hand. I think more and more militaries are going toward bullpups due to modern urban fighting, use of body armor, and riding around in armored fighting vehicles. This is also why submachineguns are seeing a resurgence.

As far as there being no advantage to carrying a submachinegun over a compact rifle, I disagree. The weapon itself usually ends up being more compact and handier overall and the magazines themselves aren't nearly as bulky. The P90, I think, is a great step in the right direction whereas the MP7 is an over-complicated machinepistol with specialized ammunition that's now been surpassed by certain 9mm loadings. If you've never held a P90, the thing is ridiculously short and while it might be longer than an MP7 it's general carrying bulk isn't much more while being quite a bit more capable. With short barreled rifles you also have to deal with a lot of noise and muzzle blast and when you stick a sound suppressor on the end you get to deal with gas blowback in your face. Suppressed SBRs can end up being amazingly finicky to fine tune.

What I would like to see is caseless or Cased Telescoped Ammunition from the Lightweight Small Arms Technology program applied to a high capacity and lightweight submachinegun design like the Kriss Vector. This is the same reasoning behind the Bizon submachinegun that the Russians have had for years. It was originally developed to fire 9x18mm at a fast rate from a large helical magazine and intended for short duration, high-firepower engagements at the ranges commonly encountered in urban fighting.

That being said, if Kel-Tec comes out with a 5.56mm gun like the RFB that takes standard magazines, and hopefully swappable barrels, I'd be very interested in one.
 

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The mag swap is one of the biggest problems with a bullpup but I think it's mainly a training issue. I don't own a bullbup yet but the RFB is about tied with the KSG for the #1 spot on my list.

If I was going to go the SBR Ar15 route I would want it in 300blk, that helps solve many of the SBR problems.

You have a good point about the subguns like the P90 being so compact. I think the difference between the assault rifle and submachine gun will start to blur more and more. I just don't think you will see many new designs with traditional pistol calibers in the future. Heck I would like to see something like a P90 in 300blk but I don't think that would happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The Magpul PDR is a great example of where things are going. The nice thing is you should be able to switch it over to things like .300 AAC or .458 SOCOM or whatever you want. At this point it's a mockup but it's working unfiring mockup as in a lot of the controls and things are functional. If you search YouTube there are a few videos of it and the airsoft version they're releasing soon. The thing is shorter than our Sub-2000s in a ready to fire package.

One other reason there has been a falloff in interest in the west in submachineguns is lack of real development of the 9mm Parabellum cartridge in a military sense. The Russians have some amazing loads in this cartridge that the US military should really be looking to copy including a loading that's almost as good as the 5.7mm if you believe them.
 
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