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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
What is the popular consensus pertaining to ammo from members to use as a defensive load in their sub2000's? I'm reading +p loads may not be ideal due to over expansion, thus less diameter and possible fragmentation from the increased velocity in a PCC and the 147Gr standard pressure loads are a better option for a PCC? is there truth to this? This is my first carbine chambered in a handgun caliber.

I have a Tan NiB Glock19 version coming from the factory that is going to live in my truck full time for a SHTF/civil unrest/active shooter scenario off duty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Funny that you link that, I was just looking at it. What makes you so "matter of fact" about this round for my application? Ive always been partial to gold dots
 

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What is the popular consensus pertaining to ammo ... Glock19 version coming from the factory that is going to live in my truck full time for a SHTF/civil unrest/active shooter scenario off duty.
From what I understand from your question, this may be a suitable ammo choice.
Police & military discount for purchases ~ credentials needed.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/collec...on-ammo9mm-luger-105gr-maximum-expansion-ammo

Link for LD testing videos: http://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/maximum-expansion-bullets-and-ammunition

AoG ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I just saw the military arms channel review of underwood ammo xtreme defender rounds in 9mm. He tested the +p+ 90 grain and got 1777 out of a 16" barrel which equates to 631 ft.lb of energy AND its a solid bullet. You think +p+ would be ok for use over a couple of mags? I obviously wouldn't feed it a steady diet of them for plinking but for the SD scenario mentioned, I think they would be ideal.
 

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I'm a relatively new shooter, so my decision is based on reading lots of articles from magazines/websites and reading lots of angry/passionate forum threads.

I currently load Freedom Munitions (Hornady) XTP 124 gr for home defense magazines:

https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammunition/pistol/9mm/9mm-luger-124-gr-xtp-new.html

I weighed a lot of factors and the XTP meets my current needs. I want to be able to shoot my HD round regularly, so I can't afford the higher priced manufacturers. The XTP is consistently accurate for me out of my Glock and Sub2000, and it goes bang every time.

From a practical perspective my shotgun is my go-to gun for self-defense, so I'll only use the 9mm to get me to my KSG.

As I become more knowledgeable/experienced my opinion could obviously change...
 

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He tested the +p+ 90 grain and got 1777 out of a 16" barrel which equates to 631 ft.lb of energy AND its a solid bullet.

You think +p+ would be ok for use over a couple of mags?

That's a great question for someone that works at Kel-Tec.
 

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I just saw the military arms channel review of underwood ammo xtreme defender rounds in 9mm. He tested the +p+ 90 grain and got 1777 out of a 16" barrel which equates to 631 ft.lb of energy AND its a solid bullet. You think +p+ would be ok for use over a couple of mags? I obviously wouldn't feed it a steady diet of them for plinking but for the SD scenario mentioned, I think they would be ideal.
Kel Tec has always stated the use of +P OK for limited use.

Along with that, they always say +P+ is a definite NO. Do not use.
 

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Kel Tec has always stated the use of +P OK for limited use.

Along with that, they always say +P+ is a definite NO. Do not use.
Cool.

I have no +P+, and my +P are in mags that are marked & reserved for actual self defense, and the defense of others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Fair enough. Looks like even with their standard +p and adjusting for the longer barrel increase in velocity you'd still be seeing roughly 560 ft lbs of energy and I wouldn't have to worry about grenading my barrel. Thanks Guys.
 

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after years of shooting and reading more (and forgetting) more ballistics tests than i can remember ill chime in.

+p+ are meaningless due to the very few weapons that can fire them safely and the sub 2k is not one of them.

+p is unpredictable due to its nature of being over accepted pressure specs. i wouldnt fire them through a sub gun unless theres no choice.

standard loads are the way to go for a couple reasons. one is wear on the weapon. these guns are designed for standard pressures.

another is recoil.

recoil affects accuracy, training, shot to shot time and accurate placement. over pressure loads do not equate to enough terminal benefit to negate their shortcomings. in defensive situations, ALL that matters is multiple, accurately placed rounds. a standard hp will do almost exactly the same damage as a +p+ load if you understand terminal ballistics. the +p or +p+ bullet will likely over expand and actually be of a smaller diameter than a standard pressure load. the temporary wound cavity is acknowledged as being a non issue in pistols calibers and so only the physical damage done by the projectile is meaningful. this eliminates the perceived idea that higher muzzle energy is effective at wounding in these cases. in rifle rounds the energy is on a different level altogether and stretches tissue to the tearing point where this isnt possible in these pistol loads. normal pressure rounds allow for faster follow up shots and that is more important than higher energy.

as for which ammo i use or advocate using ill say that the federal hst in 124 or 147 is a good choice. federal has demonstrated the hst to be the most consistant performer of all defensive bullets the fbi has tested.

however, i am a huge fan of lehigh defense. they are what took the place of the hst in all my weapons.
 

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after years of shooting and reading more (and forgetting) more ballistics tests than i can remember ill chime in.

+p+ are meaningless due to the very few weapons that can fire them safely and the sub 2k is not one of them.

+p is unpredictable due to its nature of being over accepted pressure specs. i wouldnt fire them through a sub gun unless theres no choice.

standard loads are the way to go for a couple reasons. one is wear on the weapon. these guns are designed for standard pressures.

another is recoil.

recoil affects accuracy, training, shot to shot time and accurate placement. over pressure loads do not equate to enough terminal benefit to negate their shortcomings. in defensive situations, ALL that matters is multiple, accurately placed rounds. a standard hp will do almost exactly the same damage as a +p+ load if you understand terminal ballistics. the +p or +p+ bullet will likely over expand and actually be of a smaller diameter than a standard pressure load. the temporary wound cavity is acknowledged as being a non issue in pistols calibers and so only the physical damage done by the projectile is meaningful. this eliminates the perceived idea that higher muzzle energy is effective at wounding in these cases. in rifle rounds the energy is on a different level altogether and stretches tissue to the tearing point where this isnt possible in these pistol loads. normal pressure rounds allow for faster follow up shots and that is more important than higher energy.

as for which ammo i use or advocate using ill say that the federal hst in 124 or 147 is a good choice. federal has demonstrated the hst to be the most consistant performer of all defensive bullets the fbi has tested.

however, i am a huge fan of lehigh defense. they are what took the place of the hst in all my weapons.
+P is over standard 9mm pressure but still given a rating by SAAMI of 38500 PSI.

Huh? You say the round will over expand and then you say it will be smaller. I'm confused unless you are saying the round will expand to the point that it will fragment.

I like the Corbon DPX 115 grain +p for that reason. The monolithic bullet should not fragment and the added velocity should help that expanded bullet penetrate deeper.
 

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Modern pistol bullets are far better than the offerings our dad's had to choose from. Take the Federal HST 124 grain plus p as example. They are kown to perform well out of pistols. A test using that ammo out of a Sub2000 showed good performance in ballistic gel as follows: penitration 16.25", the bullet held together well and expanded to about .45, velocity just shy of 1300 fps with about 460 fpe. That is performance in the lower end of the 357 Mag spectrum, exceeding performance of the venerable 125 grain load out of a 3" barrel but shy of the 4"......pretty darn good for self defense in my book. Recoil difference out of a 9mm carbine between standard and plus p...really:rolleyes:
The only real consideration is accelerated wear and that is valid. Myself use 124 grain Winchester NATO spec ball as practice ammo and keep 124 grain plus P in the mag for serious use. That said I don't run thousands of rounds through my sub. To me it is a tool that fills a narrow snitch and is only fired enough to remain familiar with its use. I imagine someone that runs her all the time would likely be better off with a standard pressure load.
Back to the original question, I wouldn't worry about the slug coming apart at carbine velocities. These projectiles are well designed and work over a good range of velocities.
 

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... federal has demonstrated the hst to be the most consistant performer of all defensive bullets the fbi has tested. however, i am a huge fan of lehigh defense. they are what took the place of the hst in all my weapons.
A new development is the Sierra V-Crown. The THR member's testing the 125gr JHP have documented excellent weight retention and very good performance from pistols.
Here's a few pics from a recent test :cool:

Auto part


The deep cannelure keeps the jacket & bullet from separating :eek:

Fashion accessory Metal Copper


Lehigh Extreme penetrating 9mm ammo.

Ammunition Games Collection Recreation Bullet


AoG
 

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+P is over standard 9mm pressure but still given a rating by SAAMI of 38500 PSI.

Huh? You say the round will over expand and then you say it will be smaller. I'm confused unless you are saying the round will expand to the point that it will fragment.

I like the Corbon DPX 115 grain +p for that reason. The monolithic bullet should not fragment and the added velocity should help that expanded bullet penetrate deeper.
over expanding higher velocity loads are basically seen in nearly all hp designs and even my favorite lehighs. the point behind an hp is to expand the frontal area so as to damage the most tissue. if the bullet is matched to its intended velocity through powder selection or desired barrel length properly, the bullets will expand as close to 90 degrees perpendicular as possible without the petals folding backwards towards the bullet's base. the maximum diameter is at 90 degrees, once past that the diameter shrinks back down. the hst's WERE the best at this until the new players such as lehigh have come on the scene.
 

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Recoil difference out of a 9mm carbine between standard and plus p...really:rolleyes:
you can roll your eyes all you like but you cant defy physics. the +p loads will produce longer dwell times between shots. come to florida with your preferred +p loads and ill supply standard rounds and we can do this experiment so you can prove me wrong.
 
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