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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok so why is this thread started in the CP33 section? Because 33 or 50 rounds makes for a pretty potent change of attitude if it's unloaded into a target with evil intent. I'd certainly prefer to use a reliable firearm with 33rounds instead of a reliable firearm with 10 rounds. I never heard it documented that anyone after a shooting was quoted to say, "Gee I had too much ammo.". One never knows what it's going to take to change an attitude.

I'm not a proponent of .22 for SD but that's all that some folks can handle or are comfortable with. And any gun beats using harsh words. Many .22 bullets unleashed into someone's torso might not be a stopper, then again. maybe it will be. Again, it's better than nothing. OK, now having written that I carry my arm braced CP33 when the wife and I go for walks not so much for 2 legged vermin but the 4 legged type that we're most likely to encounter. I'm not counting on one round to do the job on a rabid animal but a very rapidly unleashed hail of bullets.

Recently, someone decided and posted that their CP33 wasn't going to be used for SD because it was a rimfire (no names!) and I've run into this in the past. That got me to thinking... does anyone make a better .22 round specifically designed for SD? So I did a duck duck go search for "self defense reliable .22 lr ammo" and surprisingly found that it is indeed made. I've never fired any of it, and the only place that I found any in stock of the Eley "Force" was in the UK. Once I found that it was indeed a "thing" that's where my search ended. I would hope that production methods are such that a more reliable primer is injected into the spinning case. Reliability of the primer is my issue with a .22 for SD.

But my point is that for those thinking of using a .22 for SD there are better options for fodder than the really cheap stuff with primers that may or may not work. Just do a search to get current information when ammo comes back into stock.
 

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I’ve found the Lapua and SK ammo primers to be near 100% as long as ambient temperature is above 20 F. Below that - 5 to 10% light primer strikes. Now SK just came out with a High Velocity Match round. Should be very reliable and I wouldn’t want 33 of them anywhere near me. I picked a brick of 500 for $99 at Mile High Shooting Accessories.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Not specifically SD ammo, But I use Federal bulk boxed "AutoMatch" in steel Challenge competition and I have never gotten a misfire in my 10/22 Charger with that ammo. I doubt that it's LRN bullet would expand at all, but if one uses a .22 it's not about one round doing the job, but accuracy of placement and lots of rounds fired. Having written that, Lucky Gunner has a chart of documented shoots and in 61% of them one shot from a .22 stopped the problem. 30 some odd percent required more than one round fired. I think that was from a pocket pistol too. I only shoot SC in warm months and have no idea how the ammo works in the cold. But indoors or held close to the body I'd call that "warm weather".

Come think of it I can't remember any misfires from older CCI ammo either even when I hunted in the cold with it. But I'm sure others have much more experience with todays CCI than I do. That's why I didn't mention todays CCI.
 

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Up to now I hadn't heard of the Ely Force. But, as far as self-defense use, I've never seen a manufacturer that lists/advocates/advertises 22LR for self-defense. Certainly they know that folks will use it for self-defense. But expressly advocating/branding/advertising 22LR for self-defense appears to be taboo, maybe their lawyers urge them to stay away from it.

IMO there is a place for 22LR in self-defense. For example take my wife, she will only shoot 22LR. She's been given the opportunity to try other calibers and a variety of guns. And after those opportunities she's made it plain that she is only comfortable with 22LR and clearly understands the limitations. She also prefers a revolver vs. semi-auto for simplicity sake, she wants no part of a slide much less practicing a malfunction drill which is extra important with 22LR in a semi-auto. As such I'm glad because if a round does not go bang, she just keeps pulling the trigger. I wouldn't want to be up against her with the 8 round Ruger LCR as she shoots it well and with confidence. Given this context, 22LR is certainly a viable option, for her. There are plenty of folks just like her for a variety of reasons.

As for her ammo, we stick with CCI; it seems the shooting community almost universally holds CCI in high regard. She carries the CCI Velocitor because did some ballistics gel testing with her LCR. We put up CCI Stingers, Velocitors and Mini-Mags. The Velocitor had the best penetration results results in her LCR. None of them appreciabally expanded.
These were our results:
CCI Stinger CPHP 32 grain: Average penetration 11.16” [10.0/11.5/12.0]
CCI Mini-Mag CPHP 36 grain: Average penetration 12.75” [11.25/12.75/14.25]
CCI Velocitor CPHP 40 grain: Average penetration 14.08” [13.25/16.5/12.5]

Bottom line for me is being grateful that we still have so many choices in firearms and ammo. Make an informed decision and shoot what you are confident and competent shooting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I think of .22 about the way I think of #4 buckshot. They're about the same diameter, similar velocity, and like #4, don't plan on using just one. But even it it's something bigger It's a good idea to use them over and over until the threat stops being a threat.

Mark, that CCI velocitor was a top pick in Lucky Gunners short barrel tests too (2" snubnose and pocket guns if I remember correctly) and got better with even a minimally longer barrel. From what I remember Aguila super sport or some such (super extra?) also got high marks. Aguila makes good .22.
 

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Up to now I hadn't heard of the Ely Force. But, as far as self-defense use, I've never seen a manufacturer that lists/advocates/advertises 22LR for self-defense. Certainly they know that folks will use it for self-defense. But expressly advocating/branding/advertising 22LR for self-defense appears to be taboo, maybe their lawyers urge them to stay away from it.

IMO there is a place for 22LR in self-defense. For example take my wife, she will only shoot 22LR. She's been given the opportunity to try other calibers and a variety of guns. And after those opportunities she's made it plain that she is only comfortable with 22LR and clearly understands the limitations. She also prefers a revolver vs. semi-auto for simplicity sake, she wants no part of a slide much less practicing a malfunction drill which is extra important with 22LR in a semi-auto. As such I'm glad because if a round does not go bang, she just keeps pulling the trigger. I wouldn't want to be up against her with the 8 round Ruger LCR as she shoots it well and with confidence. Given this context, 22LR is certainly a viable option, for her. There are plenty of folks just like her for a variety of reasons.

As for her ammo, we stick with CCI; it seems the shooting community almost universally holds CCI in high regard. She carries the CCI Velocitor because did some ballistics gel testing with her LCR. We put up CCI Stingers, Velocitors and Mini-Mags. The Velocitor had the best penetration results results in her LCR. None of them appreciabally expanded.
These were our results:
CCI Stinger CPHP 32 grain: Average penetration 11.16” [10.0/11.5/12.0]
CCI Mini-Mag CPHP 36 grain: Average penetration 12.75” [11.25/12.75/14.25]
CCI Velocitor CPHP 40 grain: Average penetration 14.08” [13.25/16.5/12.5]

Bottom line for me is being grateful that we still have so many choices in firearms and ammo. Make an informed decision and shoot what you are confident and competent shooting.
My wife loves her 9 shot Taurus 22LR revolver. I just bought her the CP33 due to its large capacity. I'm sure she will NOT like it and it will be mine.😁 I'll just have to buy her a Chiappa Rhino then in .357 mag. When I can find one, that is.

Oh, thanks for posting the ammo information! 👍
 

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My wife loves her 9 shot Taurus 22LR revolver. I just bought her the CP33 due to its large capacity. I'm sure she will NOT like it and it will be mine.😁 I'll just have to buy her a Chiappa Rhino then in .357 mag. When I can find one, that is.

Oh, thanks for posting the ammo information! 👍
A .22 revolver kind of lessens the bad primer concern with rimfire, if a round doesn't go off you just pull the trigger again.
 

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Mark, that CCI velocitor was a top pick in Lucky Gunners short barrel tests too (2" snubnose and pocket guns if I remember correctly) and got better with even a minimally longer barrel. From what I remember Aguila super sport or some such (super extra?) also got high marks. Aguila makes good .22.
BJK, when I did the test we expected the Stinger to penetrate the most. But if you look at the three we tested, the heavier round prevailed with the 40 grain round Velocitor first, 36 grain MM second and 32 grain Stinger third. Just glad we tested. And after cross checking the Lucky Gunner data, seems to validate the results re: short barrel snub.
 

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33 or 50 rounds makes for a pretty potent change of attitude
Police tend to use more rounds in defensive encounters, but it's rare for Joe Citizen to use more than six rounds, even when facing multiple assailants. Typically, the firearm is used in a low ready position to convey "You seem to have mistaken me for prey", and that ends the conflict and those encounters are never counted as people successfully using firearms for self defense. When shots are fired, lawfully armed citizens typically fire one or two rounds to stop the threat.

Many times, there is a "psychological stop", where a very bad person decides he has better things to do than a gun fight. This is the FIBSA factor - fudge I'm being shot at. A 22 LR will engage the FIBSA factor. 22 LR is also capable of activating the FIBS factor - fudge I've been shot. Any credible resistance is usually enough to dissuade robbers who are looking for easy pickings and not armed opposition. I don't carry a 22 LR for self defense, but I don't rip on anyone who does. Anything is better than nothing, every time.

This is largely why I've been an advocate of Kel-Tec making a super small mostly injection molded semi-auto mouse gun with 6+ round capacity for absolute minimal self defense carry. Maybe they're reluctant to market a 22 LR for defense, and why else would someone buy an ultra-small 22 LR pistol? I'd love to have one. It'd make a great backup gun.



I did a duck duck go search....
Duck.com for the win. (y) Why use a search engine that spies on you and monetizes your personal information?



Reliability of the primer is my issue with a .22 for SD.
Me too. I've found CCI to have far better primer reliability than Federal, and FAR better reliability than Winchester. CCI rim fire primer reliability is almost on par with center fire primer reliability, IMO.
 

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This is largely why I've been an advocate of Kel-Tec making a super small mostly injection molded semi-auto mouse gun with 6+ round capacity for absolute minimal self defense carry. Maybe they're reluctant to market a 22 LR for defense, and why else would someone buy an ultra-small 22 LR pistol? I'd love to have one. It'd make a great backup gun.
Ruger marketed the LCP II 22 for self defense, 10+1 in a tiny package... Lite Rack™ LCP® II in .22 LR

Mine has run 100% on bulk ammo.
 

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Ruger marketed the LCP II 22 for self defense, 10+1 in a tiny package... Lite Rack™ LCP® II in .22 LR Mine has run 100% on bulk ammo.
Those do look nice for their niche, but:

1) I'm boycotting the Little Copied Pistol. Search that term on Kel-Tec if you don't know the back story where Ruger blatantly ripped off the Kel-Tec P3AT, part for part, with the parts interchangeable between the original P3AT and Ruger's LCP copy. The Ruger marketing weasels had the gall to run ads saying how the Ruger engineers started with a clean sheet of paper when creating the LCP. Yeah, they put a clean sheet of paper into the copy machine, put a P3AT on the glass and pressed the copy button. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Ruger flattered the living crap out of Kel-Tec's P3AT. Claiming that they did any original engineering was insult added to injury.

2) Cute as the 22 LR LCP is, I'm wanting an even smaller 22 LR mouse gun pocket pistol. The LCP is a minimal 380 form factor. A 22 LR pistol could be much smaller. Yes, I realize that smaller than a P3AT introduces ergonomic issues, but at the very least they could make it much thinner and much lighter. I'm thinking ultra compact. I have a Phoenix Arms HP22A and it's small but heavy, being made from Zamak. I'd love to see how ultra tiny and ultra lightweight Kel-Tec could make a 22 LR pistol using as little metal as possible and leveraging injection molded Zytel or a similar material.
 

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match ammo almost never fails. Some of it is low velocity, but the problem with rimfire failures is 100% related to the bottom shelf cheapest per round bulk ammo that everyone knows and loves. You don't see the guys at camp perry throwing out buckets of bad .22s that did not go bang.
 

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I'm mid process of getting the wife to carry a pistol. I'm fully committed to .22lr for the wife. Can't get her carry anything bigger, and she's become more recoil sensitive over the last decade.

Liberty I think lots of company's copied the keltec, but ruger's got size weight and reliability going for this gun, so now I own one.

Wifey liked going to the range with her bersa .380, she wasn't a bad shot either. Then we had a kid.
Been to range one time since the birth of our daughter. Ok maybe twice?
Last fall? I got a lcp 22 lr for her, I did the now 200 rounds break in with it and aside from a first mag ftf the gun has now fired 4 different types of ammo. No issues.
For the first time ever, I got her to wear an IWB concealed carry style holster, for a couple of hours, empty chamber.
Size and weight didn't bother her at all, I even got the concession that she would like to try and shoot it soon. I picked CCI maxi mag HP ammo for carry ammo.

Observation I'd never thought of. IWB holsters for ladies got to be super comfy on the skin side. Their undies don't go up to the waist band. Never thought of this. The kydex holster did not work. Sticky soft holster with no ability to hold open for re-holstering was the winner. Then I really screwed up and suggested a belly band holster so it would conceal more comfortably.
She saw the picture of one and I got the look... you know that look. Holster choice has nothing to do with weight babe.... lost traction on the whole concept but she did wear a holstered weapon for more than hour.

So we're here, and I hope to get the wife to carry a .22 for self defense. It a concession, but it's better than being empty handed or a victim, right?
 

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I'm mid process of getting the wife to carry a pistol. I'm fully committed to .22lr for the wife. Can't get her carry anything bigger, and she's become more recoil sensitive over the last decade.

Liberty I think lots of company's copied the keltec, but ruger's got size weight and reliability going for this gun, so now I own one.

Wifey liked going to the range with her bersa .380, she wasn't a bad shot either. Then we had a kid.
Been to range one time since the birth of our daughter. Ok maybe twice?
Last fall? I got a lcp 22 lr for her, I did the now 200 rounds break in with it and aside from a first mag ftf the gun has now fired 4 different types of ammo. No issues.
For the first time ever, I got her to wear an IWB concealed carry style holster, for a couple of hours, empty chamber.
Size and weight didn't bother her at all, I even got the concession that she would like to try and shoot it soon. I picked CCI maxi mag HP ammo for carry ammo.

Observation I'd never thought of. IWB holsters for ladies got to be super comfy on the skin side. Their undies don't go up to the waist band. Never thought of this. The kydex holster did not work. Sticky soft holster with no ability to hold open for re-holstering was the winner. Then I really screwed up and suggested a belly band holster so it would conceal more comfortably.
She saw the picture of one and I got the look... you know that look. Holster choice has nothing to do with weight babe.... lost traction on the whole concept but she did wear a holstered weapon for more than hour.

So we're here, and I hope to get the wife to carry a .22 for self defense. It a concession, but it's better than being empty handed or a victim, right?
It's better than being empty for sure.
 

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I'm mid process of getting the wife to carry a pistol. I'm fully committed to .22lr for the wife. Can't get her carry anything bigger, and she's become more recoil sensitive over the last decade.
My wife wanted a pistol to keep nearby when she's reading or watching TV in the living room, in the rare moments I'm not here with a 12 gauge to settle any issues. We considered a 22 LR but I ended up giving her a Kahr CW9. She wanted something small and easy to shoot without much recoil. I'm still waiting for a Kel-Tec P17 for no more than MSRP, and that might be a good fit for her. My PMR-30 and CP33 both have grips that are too large for her hand. I have several pocket 9mm pistols (Glock G43, Mossberg MC1sc, etc.). I just realized that maybe the cheap Phoenix Arms HP22A that I previously mentioned might be more her style. I'm going to see if she likes it. It's mostly for peace of mind (hers and mine) for the rare times I'm away.



Observation I'd never thought of. IWB holsters for ladies got to be super comfy on the skin side. Their undies don't go up to the waist band. Never thought of this.
I've helped a few women select concealed carry options, and as much as method of carry and holsters are very subjective issues for guys, they're much more so for ladies. They have a lot more CCW options, though! Most women want to put a gun in their purse, along with a few hundred other items. I strongly discourage that for a couple of reasons.
  1. It'll be difficult to quickly locate a gun in a purse, unless it's a quick draw purse made to holster a firearm.
  2. Too many objects in a purse could inadvertently activate a trigger, unless it's a purse made to holster a firearm.
  3. A robber is likely to grab a purse and run away. Free gun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
There are bags, even packs specifically made for CC. I carry off body in a Maxpedition Fatboy pack. It has a specific pocket with holster designed for a handgun. I started carrying that way because I would dress one way for CC in the morning and by mid morning I had to remove clothing and couldn't. Then in the winter CC on body was fine, but there was the issue of digging below layers to get to it. Off body means it's always in the same place no matter what the weather is. She probably won't like a Fatboy, it's just too masculine, but there are manufacturers of bags that are female stylish and have the same dedicated pocket. She NEVER wants to put anything other than the handgun in that pocket for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
 

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Too many objects in a purse could inadvertently activate a trigger, unless it's a purse made to holster a firearm.
Agreed, purchased one of these for my wife and she loves it.
 

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Those do look nice for their niche, but:

1) I'm boycotting the Little Copied Pistol. Search that term on Kel-Tec if you don't know the back story where Ruger blatantly ripped off the Kel-Tec P3AT, part for part, with the parts interchangeable between the original P3AT and Ruger's LCP copy. The Ruger marketing weasels had the gall to run ads saying how the Ruger engineers started with a clean sheet of paper when creating the LCP. Yeah, they put a clean sheet of paper into the copy machine, put a P3AT on the glass and pressed the copy button. If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Ruger flattered the living crap out of Kel-Tec's P3AT. Claiming that they did any original engineering was insult added to injury.

2) Cute as the 22 LR LCP is, I'm wanting an even smaller 22 LR mouse gun pocket pistol. The LCP is a minimal 380 form factor. A 22 LR pistol could be much smaller. Yes, I realize that smaller than a P3AT introduces ergonomic issues, but at the very least they could make it much thinner and much lighter. I'm thinking ultra compact. I have a Phoenix Arms HP22A and it's small but heavy, being made from Zamak. I'd love to see how ultra tiny and ultra lightweight Kel-Tec could make a 22 LR pistol using as little metal as possible and leveraging injection molded Zytel or a similar material.
I am always amused by these threads about how the LCP is an EXACT copy of the Kel-Tec. I guess I have to agree since, other than the different weights, heights, widths, and lengths, and the fact that the vast majority of parts are different and the grip shapes, sights, trigger guards, extractors and magazines are different and that the slide contours and frame contours are all different, these guns are absolutely identical! Oh, and I forgot to mention build quality.

The fact is, if Kel-Tec was capable of creating a good finished product, they wouldn't be open to other manufactures using their design as a starting point to create a much nicer and better product.
 

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I am always amused by these threads about how the LCP is an EXACT copy of the Kel-Tec. I guess I have to agree since, other than the different weights, heights, widths, and lengths, and the fact that the vast majority of parts are different and the grip shapes, sights, trigger guards, extractors and magazines are different and that the slide contours and frame contours are all different, these guns are absolutely identical! Oh, and I forgot to mention build quality.

The fact is, if Kel-Tec was capable of creating a good finished product, they wouldn't be open to other manufactures using their design as a starting point to create a much nicer and better product.
You may be referring to the LCP II. I haven't kept up with that. When Ruger first released the LCP, it was a part-for-part direct copy of the P3AT to the limits of manufacturing tolerance, with a prettier injection molded frame and an added slide stop. There are images of the exploded view bill of materials of both pistols. Ruger changed some part names but the parts were identical. The LCP was not just the same design as the P3AT. Most of the parts were interchangeable.


The biggest difference was Ruger wasn't quite exact in their copy and managed to introduce a drop safety issue in the LCP, necessitating a recall.
 
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