200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FTE's

Discussion in 'P-3AT' started by drg-racr, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. drg-racr

    drg-racr New Member

    34
    Jul 29, 2009
    A little discouraged today.  Had about 3 or 4 that did not eject and I also noticed the front of the mag has a crack starting where the bullet tip feeds out of it.  When it jams the empty is halfway out of the chamber and the slide is almost all of the way back with the round coming up from below pushing against the empty.  All I have to do is drop the mag and hold the slide back while I let the empty fall out when I tip the barrel up.  I don't think I removed enough material from the bottom of the ramp to cause anything like this(I also still get smileys).  When I look at the rim on the case you can see where the extractor pulled off of it.  Luckily it didn't do it on any of the 20 DPX's I shot out of it...only the Winchester 95gr and Blazer Brass.  Is this the "normal" way the P3at's jam?  Is it common for the mags to crack in this location?  Its only cracked down about an 1/8" from the top right now but it will get worse.  

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  2. oak1971

    oak1971 New Member

    75
    Jul 23, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    Sounds like you need a new extractor and mag. Seems awful soon for those to fail. :-?
     

  3. JFB

    JFB New Member

    Jul 25, 2005
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    ther were a few reported cracked mags a few years back. I'm quoting one of my repies during that time

    [​IMG]
     
  4. drg-racr

    drg-racr New Member

    34
    Jul 29, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    That foam tape seems like a good idea. I've also been reading a bit about the barrel hood mod....but I cant seem to find a good post about it that really explains and pictures it well.
     
  5. scotthsi

    scotthsi New Member

    21
    Jul 27, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    Do you have a Glock? If so, make the hood look like that. Basically, you grind the "upside down U" shape into a triangle of sorts. In other words, when looking at the chamber/feed ramp end, grind the "point" of the upside down "U" off on the right (ejection port) side. You should end up with a wedge shaped hood with the thickest part on the left which tapers off to the right. Don't remove too much material. The "theory" behind this mod is that the point on the right side of the "upside down U" shaped barrel hood is hitting the empty case on the way out when the barrel tilts down thereby knocking it off the extractor which causes FTE, stovepipes, etc. The absolute WORST failure I hated was when it would feed the empty case right back into the chamber and try to feed the next round (double feed) into the back of the case locking the pistol up HARD. Had to rip the mag out to clear it.

    I did this with one of my P3ATs and didn't really notice a difference. I had that one entirely replaced (it was a 1st Gen) by KT for free with a brand new 2nd Gen and didn't modify the barrel hood at all. It's been flawless with over 500 rounds through it. So, that said, I wouldn't be to quick on the draw to actually do the barrel hood modification on your P3AT. I'd send it back to KT first.
     
  6. Celtic_Warrior

    Celtic_Warrior New Member

    98
    Feb 15, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    If you haven't cleared enough from the ramp it will, on eject, hit the top of the mag. The way to check this is:

    1. drop the mag unload the weapon

    Important: NEVER, EVER HAVE LIVE AMMO of the caliber of the firearm you are working on IN THE SAME ROOM. Only inert "Dummy" rounds or "Snap-Caps" should be allowed in your work area. Be SAFE

    2. disassemble as if cleaning
    3. insert the assembly pin
    4. set the barrel on the pin (with out the slide and springs)
    5. insert an empty mag
    6. push the barrel back, on the assembly pin, and check for clearance between the ramp and the front of the mag - be sure to move the barrel up and down (as it would move when the slide goes to the rear)
    7. if the ramp is hitting the mag, at the top of the mag, that is the amount of material to be removed from the ramp (also that is the amount of the ramp hitting the bullet (1st before hitting the mag) that is causing the smileys.

    Check this site for instructions http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/smiley.htm

    For all things technical with the Kel Tec check http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/index.htm

    Hope this helps.
     
  7. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    Yep, sounds like you may need some more rampectomy.  The mag is getting smacked by the feed ramp although it could also be the frame.  Those cracks in the front of the mag are classic.  This was far more common in 1st gen guns.  Regarding the FTEs, it sounds like the extractor is slipping off the rim.  Check that the extractor screw is snug.  Maybe check the extractor for burrs, chips, etc.  Then again, 200 rounds is just getting broken in.  The FTE may go away.  Different ammo may help too.  The mag should work fine for a good while.  When you have more, (you need more), send that one back for replacement.



    Do you have a Glock?  If so, make the hood look like that.  Basically, you grind the "upside down U" shape into a triangle of sorts.  In other words, when looking at the chamber/feed ramp end, grind the "point" of the upside down "U" off on the right (ejection port) side.[/quote]

    This is exceptionally bad advice! You "grind" absolutely NOTHING.  That will ruin your barrel in an instant, invalidate your warranty costing you the price of a new barrel, and possibly lead to a dangerous situation where the gun fires out of battery - not having locked up.

    First off, I'd only do a barrel hood mod having first ruled out the more common causes.  make sure your extractor screw is tight.  Check the extractor itself for chips, etc.  Polish the heck out of the chamber.  Any other polishing to alleviate friction in the moving parts is also good.  You can polish the feed ramp, slide rails, hammer interface and barrel lugs.  Anything that slows this light weight slide can affect extraction.  Check here for fluff & buff info:
    http://goldenloki.com/gunsmith/keltec/fullrp.htm

    Proper lubrication helps to:
    http://goldenloki.com/gunsmith/keltec/lube.htm


    Regarding the barrel hood mod, particularly with the 2nd gen guns the need is somewhat unlikely, which is why I would do some other stuff first.  Having said that, in some guns where the space tolerance is very tight, a barrel hood mod can make a difference.  If you look at the barrel hood, where the bottom edge meets the outside face, a 90 degree angle is forumed.  That forms a sharp corner which sometimes catches a piece of the empty casing on it's way out of the chamber thus affecting extraction.

    A barrel hood mod is nothing more than breaking or slightly rounding the sharp edge formed by that 90 degree angle.  Do not use a dremel but very slowly and carefully use something like a small, fine jeweler's file just to break that sharp edge.  Then maybe smooth it a bit with about 600 grit paper.  You do not want to grind, mis-shape or otherwise do anything that will affect the lockup of the pistol.  Again, just round and smooth  that sharp corner.  That tiny extra clearance for the round to pass through can make the difference.  But I'd do proper diligence on the more common issues first.  
     
  8. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    More on the BARREL HOOD MOD:

    You can see an explanation and some pics in this thread,
    http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1568

    The thread entitled "Improved Ejection and FTE Mod (1st gen only)  is located in a members only forum called maximizing miniaturation, so you'll have to register in order to read it.
    http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/index.php

    Meanwhile, here's a rough illustration:

    [​IMG]
    Sorry for the small size.
     
  9. scotthsi

    scotthsi New Member

    21
    Jul 27, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    First of all, I just had that unreliable "barrel hood modded" 1st Gen completely replaced for free with a brand new 2nd Gen P3AT.  Violate my warranty?  Uh, don't think so...they could see it plain as day just as I or anyone else could.  In fact, it was never even mentioned.  Okay, so maybe "grind" wasn't the best term to use, but I looked at the first link you provided and Flyer said "cut", "remove", etc.  Either way, metal is GOING AWAY.

    Firing out of battery?  Are you serious?  How would that happen?  I mentioned removing the right UNDERSIDE of the hood.  The overall LENGTH/BACK of the hood is not changed at all and THAT is what determines lock up.

    Edited to add: My camera battery is dead right now (but charging) and I will post some pictures of a 2nd Gen P3AT barrel I "hood modded", yet still retains perfect lockup and is 100% reliable.
     
  10. scotthsi

    scotthsi New Member

    21
    Jul 27, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    As promised...pictures!  This is a comparison between my two 2nd Gen P3ATs.  The unmodded one is the brand new one I was sent late last year by Kel-Tec (for free) to replace my old 1st Gen P3AT WITH the barrel hood mod.  No warranty violation there and it was never even brought up.  ;)

    Sorry for the quality of some of the pictures, but you get the idea.

    Barrel hood mod pictures.  Notice the upper right side of the chamber/hood area.  This is the material I, um, removed or "ground off". Whatever.  Gun functions 100%

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    Same hood modded gun showing still tight and PERFECT LOCKUP as the length of the hood was NOT modified.

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    Modded P3AT on top of new unmodded P3AT.  Notice the EXACT same lock up.

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    Modded P3AT so notice the "thin" area above the extractor where that extra material was removed.  No matter what TxCajun or anyone else says, this does NOT affect barrel lockup as shown in the previous pictures.

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    Unmodded P3AT so notice the "thicker" area above the extractor.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. scotthsi

    scotthsi New Member

    21
    Jul 27, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    I really tried to help you out with the hood mod since you asked.  I even went so far as to describe it in detail and then get totally slammed by someone else.  Even after that, I went the extra mile and posted several detailed pictures.  Sorry for actually trying to give you what you asked for.  ::)
     
  12. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    When you or anyone shows up here advising people to "grind" on their guns, with a totally inept description like this, I will post a warning to our members every time.

    "Grind the upside down U shape into a triangle?  What the hell does that mean?  There is no reference what-so-ever to where you are removing metal or how much should be removed.  Without a pic, diagram, or much more detailed instructions, who knows what you're talking about?  Worse yet, who knows what someone else might interpret that to mean?  All that is needed, if it is needed at all, is to soften the sharp angle on the lower, outer edge.  And absolutely, if you grind on your barrel hood to the point that it will no longer lock up properly, you have ruined the barrel and voided the warranty.  The fact that you did not do that does not mean that someone reading those instructions wouldn't.  From your verbal description, it was impossible to discern what you were talking about.  I'll certainly not apologize for cautioning readers to that effect.  

    No one slammed you.  What I did was post a warning regarding some really bad, impossibly unclear written instructions posted by someone who is unknown here, a member for less than a week.  Your "description" of the procedure could have had a very bad outcome for someone.  You must take into account that many folks here are not well-versed in gun smithing.  Many are newbies to guns and a lot of folks read this forum.  When describing a procedure it's important to keep all of the audience in mind.  Pics are always helpful - often virtually required.  We try to be responsible purveyors of accurate information.  Even then, the Liability Disclaimer posted in the Feedback/Announcement Forum is there for good reason.  We did not just fall off the turnip truck.  
     
  13. scotthsi

    scotthsi New Member

    21
    Jul 27, 2009
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    I provided all of that and then some. Apparently, you have a problem with the quality of my work. ;)
     
  14. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    No Scott.  I have a problem with the quality of YOU, as a human being.

    1.  ScottD  
    2.  AlbertD  
    3.  covertfolder    
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    Banned 23 times.  Is this sick or what?   ::)

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  15. haugrdr

    haugrdr Super Moderator Staff Member Supporter

    Jan 4, 2008
    Daytona Beach
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    AH-HA! I was wondering.

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  16. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    [​IMG]


    You have good intuition.   ;)
     
  17. haugrdr

    haugrdr Super Moderator Staff Member Supporter

    Jan 4, 2008
    Daytona Beach
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    Great job Dale. ;)

    I had an inkling from the way he posted...being a noobie and all. Plus his name.

    Rick
     
  18. TxCajun

    TxCajun Administrator Staff Member Supporter

    Sep 7, 2004
    Texas
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    Although his attitude showed a little, compared to some of his earlier "work" he was downright sociable. Probably just ran out of meds this past week. ;D
     
  19. haugrdr

    haugrdr Super Moderator Staff Member Supporter

    Jan 4, 2008
    Daytona Beach
    Re: 200 rounds through P3at now=cracked mag and FT

    LOL, his "attitude" was aimed right at you. :D


    That was his first mistake.

    While reading those 3 threads I remember thinking "this noob don't know who he's messing with" I almost posted a warning to him.

    Glad I didn't. ;D

    Rick