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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What prompted my question is that I read; unless you're using a bonded bullet, 147 should be used in a carbine. The added speed gained from the carbine barrel exceeds the lighter 115 & 124 bullet's specs and they will most likely shed their jackets and come apart instead of expanding. The 147 is traveling slower and it tends to hold together better & penetrate farther.

Thoughts?
 

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124 grain gold dot out of the sub is traveling about 1400 fps. That's right on the heels of 125 grain 357 mag loads from a 4" barrel. The 357 Sig uses the same projectiles as the 9, they seem to work quite well traveling at that speed. Loaded with 124 grain gold dots it's kinda like a 30 shot 357......with better accuracy and quicker follow up shots.....for self defense in doesn't get much better than that IMHO.
I have zero doubt the 147 grain will penetrate better but I suspect you'll be in the 30 shot 38 special plus P out of a 6" barrel level of performance........which doesn't exactly stink but I'll take the mag performance out of the carbine size package:D
 

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What prompted my question is that I read; unless you're using a bonded bullet, 147 should be used in a carbine. The added speed gained from the carbine barrel exceeds the lighter 115 & 124 bullet's specs and they will most likely shed their jackets and come apart instead of expanding. The 147 is traveling slower and it tends to hold together better & penetrate farther.

Thoughts?
I'd say it depends upon the bullet, but in general I do not believe there is a downside to using the heaviest bullet in a carbine. That is exactly my strategy with my .40S&W. I use 180 gr FMJ for practice and 180 gr JHP otherwise. The added velocity of the 16" carbine, while beneficial, should not be enough to introduce bullet destruction in ballistic gel where it did not occur with a 4" barrel. However, if there are ballistics tests that show otherwise, please show them. I'm smart enough to know when to change my strategy in the face of 'unfortunate truths'. :)
Looking at 'Ballistics By The Inch', the Federal 147 gr Hydrashok leaves a 16" barrel at 1073 FPS, and from a 3.6" barrel, 931 FPS. That's a pickup of only 142 FPS, which I doubt would cause any bullet integrity problems.
With my .40, I pick up almost that same amount from a 4" to the 16", 136 FPS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
It's the lighter, faster projectiles that are said to have a problem, NOT the 147s.

No 'proof' was offered to back up the claim...

I have not noticed any problems with the 115 & 124 gr. ammo I have fired, and I just ordered some 135 gr to try out.
 

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It's the lighter, faster projectiles that are said to have a problem, NOT the 147s.

No 'proof' was offered to back up the claim...

I have not noticed any problems with the 115 & 124 gr. ammo I have fired, and I just ordered some 135 gr to try out.
You're turning this into an expensive thread for me. I'm going to have to order some 124, 135, and 147 to try things out.

i've been shooting nothing but 115 (cheapest) and I've had no issues.
 

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I've loaded 147gr Hornady XTPs over Power Pistol, they're getting about 1250fps out of my S2K, 1020fps out of my full size S&W. They're a bit 'warm', no pressure signs out of them though. A bit tough shooting out of my PF9.
 

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OP, I think if I understand your question, you're wondering about hollow point ammunition and it's performance at carbine velocities.

It's certainly a valid concern. Many bullets have a fairly narrow velocity window. Overdrive some of them and they will over expand or fragment, which can impede penetration substantially. Bonded type bullets usually have a wider performance window.

It's been the same case with other calibers, such as .223/5.56, where some ammunition originally developed for use in 16"-20" barrels, didn't perform as intended in 14.5 or shorter barrels.

Also, while the bullet weights may be the same in some company's 9mm and .357 mag or Sig ammunition, one shouldn't infer it's necessarily OK to drive the 9mm version a lot faster. The bullet construction may be different in the .357 version.
 

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I have fired Winchester ranger t, Gold Dot G2, HST, Hi Shok, Hydro Shock, and Berry's plated all in 147gr, and I have had no issues with them. I pretty much only shoot 147 grain out of all my 9mm. I don't think the difference in velocity from the carbine will be a negative issue with terminal ballistics.
 

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I have fired Winchester ranger t, Gold Dot G2, HST, Hi Shok, Hydro Shock, and Berry's plated all in 147gr, and I have had no issues with them. I pretty much only shoot 147 grain out of all my 9mm. I don't think the difference in velocity from the carbine will be a negative issue with terminal ballistics.
I've been involved with quite a bit of terminal ballistics testing on a professional level. Velocity differences of even 100 fps can certainly negatively impact performance with some pistol bullets, regardless of bullet weight. It's why some police departments adopted different rounds for duty use in their 9mm carbines and SMG's. Newer designs, especially bonded bullets, will be less likely to exhibit that issue.
 

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https://blog.hsoi.com/2014/11/22/federal-hst-ammo-tests/

I found this test interesting... while the pickup in velocity for 124gr and 124gr +P was much more than the gains for 147gr, the terminal performance seemed to indicate that the 124gr variety would have issues with expansion and fragmentation, as they shed petals. The 147gr remained intact. While I'm interested in the velocity gains for 124gr and getting up to near .357 power, maybe it does lose something terminally. However, this is a single test, and the load also shed petals being shot from a G19. Maybe he had a bad lot or run of 124gr ammo, as I would not expect this to happen out of a 4" barrel. Thoughts?

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread.
 

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https://blog.hsoi.com/2014/11/22/federal-hst-ammo-tests/

I found this test interesting... while the pickup in velocity for 124gr and 124gr +P was much more than the gains for 147gr, the terminal performance seemed to indicate that the 124gr variety would have issues with expansion and fragmentation, as they shed petals. The 147gr remained intact. While I'm interested in the velocity gains for 124gr and getting up to near .357 power, maybe it does lose something terminally. However, this is a single test, and the load also shed petals being shot from a G19. Maybe he had a bad lot or run of 124gr ammo, as I would not expect this to happen out of a 4" barrel. Thoughts?

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread.
While the HST is a very good bullet for it's intended purpose, it was designed to operate at pistol velocities. Increase, or decrease, that velocity too much, and performance can suffer. The 147 grain version will not have the same velocity gain out of a 16" barrel as the 124 grain +P version, so the performance may not be affected as much. It all depends on the construction of the bullet. Some bullets have very narrow velocity windows.

Bonded bullets, (ie Gold Dot, etc), often have a wider velocity performance envelope, and don't tend to overexpand or fragment when driven substantially faster. While I have 147 grain HST loaded in my 9mm handguns, I use 124 grain +P Gold Dot in my longer barreled PCC's.

Years of misinformation from gun magazines, (and some ammo companies), have convinced many that extra velocity, or energy, is the "magic bullet" with handgun ammunition. That isn't always the case.
 

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Winchester "T" 147gr subsonic works good in my 995TS HiPoint. They tell you not to use the 147 as it can be too long, and may jam. The projectiles are truncated and work fine! Evidently the normal round nose will hit the roof of the chamber.
 
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