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Reloads and chronographs of the sub2k

96K views 258 replies 88 participants last post by  Hvymax 
#1 ·
Hey TxCajun, is it possible that we could have a sticky thread for chronograph results on the subbie?  The question comes up over and over and it's hard to keep up with former posts.
 
#2 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

Oh Yeah!! Through 10 rounds on a fellows chrono, at 15 feet from the barrel.

High: 1238.3 fps
Low: 1194.8 fps
Avg: 1221.3 fps

There was only one shot at the low mark. Everything else was 1210 or higher. I didn't have my pistol to make a comparison with. This was all WWB, .40 S&W, 165 gr FMJ.

;)
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

And these numbers were posted by a "lurker" named Awasos. I saved them to a Word document for reference. Again all .40S&W. I know there's some 9mm data loaded too. Post it guys! ;D


Remington 155 gr. JHP
Sub 2k 1431 fps energy 704 ftlbs
Sig 229 1188 fps 485 ftlbs

Winchester 165 gr FMJ
Sub 2k 1212 fps 538 ftlbs
Sig 229 1017 fps 379 ftlbs

Speer 180 gr Gold Dot HP
Sub 2k 1163 fps 540 ftlbs
kahr p40 976 fps 380 ftlbs

Federal Personal Defense 135 gr hydrashok
sub 2k 1493 fps 667 ftlbs
Kahr 1204 fps 434 ftlbs

Hornady 180 gr XTP
Sub 2k 1184 fps 560 ftlbs

Remington 165 gr Golden Sabre
Sub 2k 1324 fps 642 ftlbs

Federal 180 gr Hydra shok
Sub 2k 1205 fps 580 ftlbs

Speer 155 gr FMJ
Sub 2k 1157 fps 460 ftlbs

Federal American Eagle 180 gr FMJ
Sub 2k 1036 fps 429 ftlbs
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

adamky shot his .40 S&W over my chronograph at the Kentucky Kel-Tec Konvention last weekend, with the following results:

165 gr FMJ WWB - 4 shots
High: 1175 fps
Low: 1090 fps
Average: 1148 ft lbs
KE: 483 ft lbs

180 gr JHP WWB - 5 shots
High: 1088 fps
Low: 989 fps
Average: 1056 ft lbs
KE: 446 ft lbs

My 9mm SUB-2000:

115 gr JHP WWB - 9 shots
High: 1288 fps
Low: 1135 fps
Average: 1206 ft lbs
KE: 371 ft lbs

I'm working on maximum energy loads for the 16" barrel S2Ks (another current S2K thread), and I hope to post here with some really impressive 9mmSUB velocities in a week or two.

Edit to add:

Note that we measured 165 gr WWB considerably slower than the Awasos data posted by 3wbdriver - 1148 fps vs. 1212 fps.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

Liberty4Ever said:
Note that we measured 165 gr WWB considerably slower than the Awasos data posted by 3wbdriver - 1148 fps vs. 1212 fps.
That IS interesting, because it's slower than what I saw the day I got another guy to chrono mine. *Could it be the higher cooler air where you were shooting compared to lower altitude high humidity summer conditions, distance from barrel, or simply variations in the chronos? *Here is the exact data as he printed it for me. *The printout wouldn't make a reliable scan, so I had to enter it by hand. *We moved the chrono about 15 feet away from the barrel after the 2nd or 3rd shot, because the muzzle blast was giving the sensor covers fits.

WWB, .40S&W, 165gr, FMJ.

High: *1238.3 - FPS *#004
Low: * 1194.8 - FPS *#002

SD: *13.3 FPS
CV: * *1.1%

MAD: *10.8 *FPS
CV: * * *0.9%

AV: *1221.3 FPS
ES: * * *43.5 FPS

#001: *1226.8 FPS
#002: *1194.8 FPS
#003: *1223.2 FPS
#004: *1238.3 FPS
#005: *1234.1 FPS
#006: *1230.6 FPS
#007: *1210.0 FPS
#008: *1228.6 FPS
#009: *1213.1 FPS
#010: *1213.5 FPS

I see now that 3 of the last 4 showed a drop off in velocity. *Could this possibly be due to barrel heating? *The shooter was taking about 5 or 10 seconds between shots. *And could someone post the formula for figuring out kinetic energy?
 
#6 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

3wbdriver said:
That IS interesting, because it's slower than what I saw the day I got another guy to chrono mine. Could it be the higher cooler air where you were shooting compared to lower altitude high humidity summer conditions, distance from barrel, or simply variations in the chronos?
Good point. Chronograph posts should include ammo type, distance from muzzle, air temperature, altitude, and humidity if known.
 
#7 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

Chrono data SHOULD include temperature and altitude, but I think these are very minor error terms in the muzzle velocity. The altitude was about 900' MSL, and the temperature was about 67 degrees F.

The velocity measurements should not vary much from one chronograph to another. They use crystal oscillators that are accurate to a few parts per million.

Distance to the chronograph could theoretically change the readings. Ten feet is often used. but 15 feet is now fairly standard and I should strive to do all my chronograph measurements at that distance. At the KKK, I set the chrono about 8-10 feet in front of the firing line. It's possible that hot smoky gas from the muzzle tripped the front sensor slightly before the bullet arrived and the bullet tripped the back sensor, causing the velocity readings to be a bit lower.

It also seems that my 9mm 115 gr WWB measurements through the SUB-2000 were lower than I remembered them being.

I wanted to post the data so we could start a comparison. With two different data points, it's difficult to know which is right. If there are ten sets of data and nine agree, then we can discard the bad data.

I'll be doing a lot more S2K chrono work in the near future, so I'll try to verify the 9mm data and report back.


Edited to add:

Kinetic energy in foot pounds is:

(bullet grains X velocity in fps X velocity in fps) / 450437
 
#8 · (Edited)
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

L4E, I'm not disputing what you read at the Konvention. I'm just trying to figure out why there was such a variation between mine and Awasos's data (2 different chronos), and your readings. Altitude obviously wasn't a big a variation as I thought. I tend to think of Kentucky as hillier and higher than our "Vast Alluvial Plain" down here. I did Basic at Ft Knox, and I remember always going up or down on our marches, but rarely level. the temperature difference between your data and mine is 25 - 30 degrees, but if anything I would have thought the hotter, heavier air down here would have slowed mine down more. I'll be the first to admit all this chronograph stuff is new to me. I'd love to have one, but since I don't reload I just can't justify it. I usually stick with the same ammo for price reasons, and while I now own 6 different calibers, I don't vary what type ammo I purchase in those calibers. It would be a "nice to have" item, but would cut into my ammo funds. So I'll take whatever I get off here and apply it for my use. I was blessed to have that guy do some readings for me, and he was stoked to try my Space ModulatOr!

:)
 
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#9 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

3wbdriver said:
I'm not disputing what you read at the Konvention.
I didn't think you were. Nor am I contesting what anyone else measured. In fact, I mentioned that my numbers seemed lower than I remembered and I only suggested a possible explanation for why my numbers might be low.

I'm just trying to figure out why there was such a variation....
Me too. I'm Dr. Science. Dr. Science doesn't like discrepancies in data.

the temperature difference between your data and mine is 25 - 30 degrees, but if anything I would have thought the hotter, heavier air down here would have slowed mine down more.
Hotter air is less dense than cooler air. If not, hot air balloons wouldn't work.

Surprisingly, at the same temperature, humid air is lighter than dry air. That's not intuitive, because water is a lot denser than air, right? The trick is, we need to compare water VAPOR to air. Water vapor is less dense than air. It's not quite as simple as comparing molecular weights because air is a fairly ideal gas and water vapor isn't, but it's still generally true. Water vapor is lighter than an equivalent volume of air.

But this air density comparison is more theoretical than practical for our discussion. The differences in air density would have a very minor effect on muzzle velocity measurements. 10-15 feet of air between the muzzle and the chronograph is not going to make a big difference. If we were concerned with first shot accuracy at 500 yards, air density could be significant, but I doubt there's much contribution to changes in muzzle velocity.

I was blessed to have that guy do some readings for me, and he was stoked to try my Space ModulatOr!
He definitely got the better end of that deal. He's probably still smiling. It was probably a quasi-religious experience for him.

I gotta get a .40 SUB.

I'm off to reload some more experimental 9mmSUB loads with three new powders I picked up yesterday. My goal is to have the fastest SUB-2000 on the planet (and not blow myself up in the process). After the 9mmSUB tests are concluded, I'll start trying the same wonderful foolishness with a .40SUB load.
 
#239 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k


I didn't think you were. Nor am I contesting what anyone else measured. In fact, I mentioned that my numbers seemed lower than I remembered and I only suggested a possible explanation for why my numbers might be low.


Me too. I'm Dr. Science. Dr. Science doesn't like discrepancies in data.


Hotter air is less dense than cooler air. If not, hot air balloons wouldn't work.

Surprisingly, at the same temperature, humid air is lighter than dry air. That's not intuitive, because water is a lot denser than air, right? The trick is, we need to compare water VAPOR to air. Water vapor is less dense than air. It's not quite as simple as comparing molecular weights because air is a fairly ideal gas and water vapor isn't, but it's still generally true. Water vapor is lighter than an equivalent volume of air.

But this air density comparison is more theoretical than practical for our discussion. The differences in air density would have a very minor effect on muzzle velocity measurements. 10-15 feet of air between the muzzle and the chronograph is not going to make a big difference. If we were concerned with first shot accuracy at 500 yards, air density could be significant, but I doubt there's much contribution to changes in muzzle velocity.


He definitely got the better end of that deal. He's probably still smiling. It was probably a quasi-religious experience for him.

I gotta get a .40 SUB.

I'm off to reload some more experimental 9mmSUB loads with three new powders I picked up yesterday. My goal is to have the fastest SUB-2000 on the planet (and not blow myself up in the process). After the 9mmSUB tests are concluded, I'll start trying the same wonderful foolishness with a .40SUB load.
Dude...........your DaMan....!
 
#11 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

My data was most likely obtained during warm weather (I am at work and will check my notes for temperature when I get home). I often find velocity differences in the same lot of ammo when fired at different temperatures. Warm ammo (and therefore warm powder) will often have higher pressure (with higher velocity) than cold ammo. Depends alot on the powder used and that powders temp sensitivity. For example, Reloader 7 is very temp sensitive while H322 isn't.

Alot of other variables may play a part but I bet temperature sensitive powder could be the culprit.

John
 
#12 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

In my typically long post, I intended to mention that powder temperature sensitivity would be more significant than air temperature or humidity or elevation.

I wasn't sure how significant it would be. It still seems like there were some differences in velocity that are too large to reasonably attribute to variations in powder burn rate caused by differences in ambient temperature?

We'll get to the bottom of this. As usual, more and better chrono data is needed. WWB is on my shopping list, so we can compare results with some known ammo that is fairly standard.
 
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#13 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

1148 fps in adamky's .40 S&W SUB-2000 could be lower than 1212 fps for the same ammo in another SUB-2000 because adamky's SUB was fairly new. The SUB-2000s aren't known for highly polished barrels, and maybe adamky's SUB-2000 is still a bit rough and is still undergoing a process of fire polishing the bore?

64 fps difference between two SUB-2000s on average is probably a reasonable expectation if we stack the tolerances on several variables, with the more significant possibilities being:

Different lots of ammo, with different powder weights, bullet weights, and powder burn rates

Different ambient temperatures changing powder burn rate

New barrel vs fire polished bore
 
#17 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

Awasos said:
Turns out that I am entirely wrong.    ???     My notes indicate that it was 13 degrees F when I shot the WWB 165 grain and the 155 gr Rem.       22 degrees for all the other ammo.               Liberty's new bore theory sounds better.  

My God man! Where in the Arctic circle do you reside!? My WWB 165gr readings were spot on with yours, and it was 85-90 out with comparable humidity that day.

;)
 
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#18 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

3wb,

We're not all swamp rats! I was wanting to go shooting today, but had other stuff to do. Low of 17 F and high was 32. Put on a coat and the shooting's fine.


Awasos,

I commend you for having such thorough notes that you can refer to them and know what the temperature was when the chrono readings were made. I also commend you for being able to find the notes! I keep all notes on my PC, because if I didn't, any data I wanted would be scribbled on the back of a cardboard lid on a box of WWB, long since recycled, or on a piece of paper that's 87% down in a mountain of scrap paper.

I do need to be more careful about recording all the environmental data when I record chrono readings. For almost everything I do, it wouldn't matter much, but people tend to take you a lot more seriously if you have all the data. At this point, I'd be more inclined to trust your readings than mine, and I just made my readings a week ago.
::)
 
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#19 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

Thanks Liberty4Ever,

I can find them, but I wouldn't call them organized! I write my notes on whatever pad of paper is handy and usually record the temp but not much else for weather. Some of my heavier .45-70 and .50 Beowulf loads can change pressure from temp sensitivity and so I don't load them right up to the crumbly edge of the pressure envelope. However it seems that I do more shooting in the cold deep winter months than the sunny summer months :(
 
#20 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

My range work today consisted of 55 rounds thru my subie in 40cal and 5 rounds thru the glock 22.

subie glock
1183 1006
1184 1026
1197 996
1169 1006
1166 1029
_____ _____
1179 1012


temp 40-45o wind left to right 5-10mph
barometer 30.39 100% humidity
All rounds fired from10-15ft thru chrono
Target at 100yds. consistant 3'' patterns fired repeatedly. Forgot about shooting cool barrel.
When i did figure it out, groups closed to consistant 2" groups. This is from the turkey scoped subie 4x32 simmons.
Ammo is Walmart Winchester 165gr 40 S&W FMJ
Target/Range 100ct white boxs. Noted two different lots of bullets.
 
#21 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

1179 fps for 165 gr WWB is closer to the 1212 fps that was previously reported by awasos than the 1148 fps I measured with adamky's fairly new SUB-2000, and 3bwdriver reported in at 1210 fps. We're definitely getting enough data that we can tell what to expect from a .40 S&W SUB-2000.

It's better to compare WWB in different weapons to see what difference the weapon makes with all else being equal, but sometimes it's fun or interesting to look at some extreme data. Here are a couple of extreme examples from my 9mm SUB-2000:

115 gr Corbon DPX - 5 shots
High: 1474 fps
Low: 1441 fps
Average: 1458 fps
KE: 543 ft lbs (avg)

90 gr Hornady XTP JHP Custom Loads - 5 shots
High: 1932 fps :eek:
Low: 1844 fps
Average: 1883 fps
KE: 708 ft lbs (avg)

Believe it or not, I think I can get a bit more velocity (and therefore kinetic energy) out of the custom 9mmSUB loads without exceeding 9mm+P chamber pressure. I have some 9mmSUB loads with a little more powder I'm going to try the next time I go shooting.
 
#22 ·
Re: sticky for chronographs of the sub2k

Played with some hand loads that I use in my clock that consist of Blue Dot powder and 135gr Nosler's.
Subie Glock
1580 1207
1517 1270
1534 1208
1528 1217
1512 1255
1530 --------
1552 1231
1515
1559
1588
-------
1541


Alliant Powder Blue Dot 11.5gr
Remington R-P brass trimed to .843
Winchester WSP Primers
Nosler 135gr JHP seated at 1.135
Heavy roll crimp.
Temperature 40o
Consistant 2'' pattern @ 100yrds.
Shoots a little dirty but am getting 300fps
differance in speed. I used this same load
to take a whitetail buck two years ago with
my glock. The bullet traveled thru the
ribs, heart, lungs, and into the shoulder.
Expansion was perfect and the bullet was
found in the skin on the shoulder side. Guess
it bounced back from hitting the shoulder.
Hand loader since 93'.
 
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