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Interesting video on FMJ for self defense

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Old 03-29-2017, 05:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by CJP32 View Post
I'm almost positive he tested a round nose and flat nose fmj. They both over penetrated and did very little damage. The Lehigh XP bullet does penetrates well but also does damage like an expanding bullet.


Here's his video testing Buffalo Bore, hard cast flat nose ammo. It penetrates 30+ inches of gel with minimal damage.

https://youtu.be/UgOa25NhFio
Not to be argumentative, but I don't put much stock in exotic ammo types. I don't see how a handgun projectile can cut a bigger hole then its original caliber unless it physically expands like a JHP does when it works right, I don't believe that anything but the actual crush cavity "counts" and I believe that while the Lehigh makes the stretch cavity bigger (in gel), it won't actually result in real life terminal performance past regular old ball ammo. Flat nose FMJ might crush vs. push aside tissue like the round nose ball would. Could be wrong, won't be the first time.

That its not over-penetrating is a good thing, but in my opinion thats sort of an argument unto itself-
Some say that its the shots that completely miss the target that endanger innocent bystanders more in actual shootings, vs. over-penetrating shots.

In any case, because you are liable for such, it is wise to choose something that won't over-penetrate.

So if the Lehigh is your choice, I can see why.

I think I'll stick with my idea that if I actually have to shoot someone, it likely won't be more then 3 shots, which will be aggressively expanding JHP to limit penetration (I think one that makes 9"-11" while expanding aggressively is about the best you can get for the .380) and maximize tissue damage to increase the chances that the person will stop from mere pain compliance, but if it goes further, I'm going to need all the penetration I can get from my little .380, so ball it will be.

In my XDm chambered for .45acp, I use all JHP for defense, because I have no qualms about the load I use in that caliber being able to both penetrate and expand.
But with .380, you just can't beat physics, no matter which load you choose. You just have to work within those limitations.

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Old 03-30-2017, 01:45 AM   #12
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Here's another video of that Lehigh penetrator, with some hot Underwood.

Again, I'm not really convinced that what were seeing here in gel is going to relate to live terminal events. Gel is missing the "bounce back elasticity" that you see in live tissue. I think what were seeing here is tricky- the "turbine effect" of the Lehigh is increasing the stretch cavity for sure, but because pistol rounds don't make a stretch cavity so aggressively (they don't have the power as, say, a rifle round does, to make the stretch cavity an actual part of the overall wound), live tissue usually just bounces back from the stretch cavity leaving what the bullet actually impacts as the resulting wound channel.

Quote:
Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush mechanism. -DocGKR https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4328-Basic-Wound-Ballistic-Terminal-Performance-Facts&
In short, unless I'm proven wrong by actual shooting results with this ammo, I'm going to say that the Lehigh is about the same as FMJ with a flat nose. The little grooves cut in them throw off a nice stretch cavity, and might, maybe, increase the energy dump into the target over standard and maybe even flat nose ball, but I don't think they'd add to actual crush cavity wounding effect.
Sure looks spectacular in gel tho.
Thats just my thoughts on it. Again, could be wrong, won't be the first time.

Also for consideration is this-
http://homedefensegun.net/leigh/

And this-
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/10/lehigh-a-gimmick/

Now, I'm not trying to be contentious or start an argument here, but lets consider all sides to this story before settling on any points of fact.

For me, the price alone is just too much to consider, there is no way I could run enough of this stuff thru my pistol to determine whether or not its even reliable in it, let alone anything else. Buffalo bore suffers from the same impediment, for me.

So, in the end, I think that if it works for you, great. Have at it.

But unless it literally takes the world by storm with actual street results that take away all doubt and justifies the cost, its just not for me.

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Old 03-31-2017, 05:00 AM   #13
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The way I see it is worst case scenario is it's no better that fmj and I wasted money on it.

I'm a fan of gel tests because it's a consistent medium when used properly. I have some experience with actual shootings and the only thing you can really count on is bullets will do strange things when they hit someone. Trying compare one incident to another is almost useless. Having a big sample of a specific bullet will help but I don't see that happening with these Lehigh designs.

Hunters using them might be helpful too. I was just talking to my brother who is planning in deer hunting with a Glock 40 10mm. I might see if he will give them a try and let me know how they work. Maybe that would give some idea if they are better than fmj.
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP32 View Post
The way I see it is worst case scenario is it's no better that fmj and I wasted money on it.

I'm a fan of gel tests because it's a consistent medium when used properly. I have some experience with actual shootings and the only thing you can really count on is bullets will do strange things when they hit someone. Trying compare one incident to another is almost useless. Having a big sample of a specific bullet will help but I don't see that happening with these Lehigh designs.

Hunters using them might be helpful too. I was just talking to my brother who is planning in deer hunting with a Glock 40 10mm. I might see if he will give them a try and let me know how they work. Maybe that would give some idea if they are better than fmj.
Buying guns and ammo is -never- a waste of money. N-E-V-E-R.



Gel is a limited testing medium that shows what a projectile may be capable of mostly in terms of penetration and expansion numbers. I don't think it duplicates what live tissue would do to a "T", nor do I think it was ever intended to.

To be honest- I don't want to get shot with that lehigh stuff, even out of a .32.

But then, I don't like the idea of being shot with anything, at all.

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Old 04-01-2017, 04:37 AM   #15
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Back to the OP-

I've enjoyed the videos from this guy Paul, so much so that I hung out and watched a few the other night when I came across this thread, and one stuck with me, I am re-watching it but I think its pertinent to any discussion about JHP vs. FMJ in the smaller calibers.

I skipped the video ahead a bit to where it gets to the relevant part-

https://youtu.be/LTTDgZZZFa0?t=12m55s

If a 115gr 9mm JHP falls short on penetration......... that doesn't bode well for any .380 JHP.

Of course, this is a simulation of a police gunfight with some serious desperadoes, not a self-protection scenario. But, its another data point for consideration. If you are using JHP's in your pocket .380 you might want to consider that it may not be up to lateral shots like this.

Then again, there are plenty of other "juicy targets" I can think of that an expanded JHP might reach in such a shot even if it falls short of the heart- pulmonary arteries, for one. And if you are using a .380, I would seriously consider the Mozambique drill, as quaint as it may sound...... I don't think too many people would be up and fighting after a .380 JHP to the head.

BTW- You should watch the whole video, it's a very refreshing take on the 9mm vs .40 debate.

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Old 04-01-2017, 05:08 AM   #16
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Good video, thanks for sharing it. I subbed to him and will watch more of his videos.

I think the switch from 40 to 9 is a good call for most agencies. I have some experience in the law enforcement world and not to be disrespectful but some cops could use the help in the marksmanship area. The cheaper ammo can help them shoot more often too.
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Old 04-01-2017, 05:48 AM   #17
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My only beef with .40 is that it isn't .45 lol .

I like 9mm just fine, but I'm sold on the big bore for the bigger size guns. 9mm is great in more compact ones. In fact its downright awesome that you can get a walther PP or even PPK sized pistol in 9x19 these days.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:37 PM   #18
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Personally, I still mostly stick with the old Federal Hydra-shoks in my P3AT. It isn't the newest design by any means but I have shot enough of them to know that they function well in my P3AT - which is the #1 priority - and that I can generally hit what I am aiming at when firing them - which is priority #2. In gel tests I have seen on the 'Net, the expansion they give is not exactly amazing but they generally do give at least a little expansion which usually makes them have a pretty nasty, gnarly 'profile' to be flying through an assailants internals. The other thing is, with the expansion range they usually give (albeit minimum) they consistently penetrate to around 12 or 13 inches or a little more. Some of the tests I have seen found that the hollow point cavity will, occasionally, clog during the 4 layers of denim tests which can cause them to act more like an FMJ and over penetrate a little. That is the only, potential drawback I have seen.

Funny, a few weeks back (and independently of CJP32's previous post) I came across the gel tests done by that same fellow. His results with Hydra-Shok are about on par with most, such tests that I have seen:


I have to admit, though, that the LeHigh XP test he did is pretty compelling. I just don't know that I want to spend the $$$ to function test enough of them to be confident in switching to them in my P3AT.
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:52 PM   #19
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Not to bad mouth anyone's choice of defensive ammo, but the Federal Hydrashock didn't do the same thing in this test at all.

I've spent some time watching some of the ammoquest tests and the Hornady FTX critical defense, as well, didn't do the same thing in other recent tests either- it did better.

This is not a criticism of anyone's test or anyone's choice on how they load their gun, its just to illustrate the point that as far as I can tell, the .380 still sits on the very margin of effectiveness when it comes to performance with modern defensive ammo and is very inconsistent with it.

That being said, I stumbled on a little something relating to .380 Auto- FMJ tends to tumble.

I know this is just one test but its not the first time I've come across this information.

I found some very good reading on the subject here.

So while -if- a good JHP load expands, it might not penetrate deep enough, even if it does so in one test there may be other tests that show otherwise, FMJ will never under-penetrate, but will not expand...... although, it has a chance of tumbling, which increases its wounding effectiveness.
It also increases the reliability of -any- firearm, especially our little pocket friends which have very limited margin for error in their short operation cycles to begin with.

As for the over-penetration issue, I'm of the opinion that you run the same risk even if you load your gun with a good JHP that fails to expand, and that risk is much less IMHO then the risk of shots that miss the target entirely and may hit innocent bystanders with all of their energy.
The solution to this problem, IMVHO, is ultimately marksmanship and background awareness, not a particular bullet type.

So, while I believe that FMJ or "hardball" is not an appropriate choice for any caliber and firearm combination that demonstrates consistent and reliable expansion with good JHP, .380 Auto just isn't there yet, despite all the advances in technology, and I'll stick to ball. YMMV.
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